The Debt We Owe to Christian Mathematicians and Logicians

[stahrwe]

In fact atheism is a belief system. As Chesterton said, "If there were no God there would be no atheists."

[Chris OConnor]

Atheism most certainly is not a belief system. Is bald a hair color?

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. All you know about an atheist is that they lack the belief in a God or gods. You don't know anything about their actual beliefs. You don't know that they believe a God doesn't exist. They just lack the belief. Everyone on this planet was born without beliefs including the God belief. In other words we were all born as atheists and remained as atheists until we were introduced to the God concept.

I'm an atheist. That tells you what I do NOT believe in. But what DO I believe in? I'm a secular humanist. My beliefs can be studied and understood by learning about the principles of secular humanism. You can't glean anything about my beliefs by pointing at something I don't believe in. I also don't believe in unicorns. Does my lack of belief in unicorns tell you about my beliefs? Of course not.

[youkrst]

Is bald a hair color?

nice riposte!







\goes off to look in mirror at long flowing salt and pepper locks

[youkrst]

expect no rational responses here from atheists members, monitors, owner. They are locked into their atheist bigotry

then

because atheists are not tuned to critical thinking but to red flags that identify a poster as a theist and therefore a target for ad hominen attack.

pot>kettle>black?

touche!

en guarde..

chill out sonoman it's only a movie don't get too into your role

c'mon get paxcalibur out and we'll dance with the devil in the pale moonlight

[DWill]

The point he was making, I thought, was that being, not just a Christian, but a Christian functionary such as a priest or monk didn't prevent some from advancing mathematics, science, and other fields. And obviously that's true. Mendel was a monk, e.g. Surprisingly, Christopher Hitchens acknowledges this in GiNG. It's really odd: sometimes we can see religion (pick any of the big three) acting to retard this kind of progress, other times not impeding it or even fostering it. Islam once wasn't hostile to science and the liberal arts, but that was centuries ago. Christianity has seemed to do quite a lot better. There are the "Dark Ages" to confront, but we'd need to consult a bunch of good historians before we blame that on Christianity.

[Interbane]

In fact atheism is a belief system. As Chesterton said, "If there were no God there would be no atheists."

I don't believe in dragons. Does that mean "adragonism" is a belief system? Does that also mean that dragons logically exist, as Chesterton seems to imply?

"If there were no dragons there would be no one who disbelieves in dragons." Chesterton shows that, at least in this case, he isn't very good at logic.

[youkrst]

Islam once wasn't hostile to science and the liberal arts, but that was centuries ago. Christianity has seemed to do quite a lot better. There are the "Dark Ages" to confront,

i know people get sick of hearing it but it's the truth

literalism is the culprit.

adherence to a literalist interpretation is what turns a potentially great metaphor into a death head.

it always amazes me how people will never take a saying like "theres more than one way to skin a cat" literally and they think someone who does is demented, but then they turn around and interpret scripture literally and think anyone who doesn't is demented! jeez louise!

still i was a diehard fundy for years of tears so it really shouldn't amaze me that much

[sonoman]

Atheism most certainly is not a belief system. Is bald a hair color?

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. All you know about an atheist is that they lack the belief in a God or gods. You don't know anything about their actual beliefs. You don't know that they believe a God doesn't exist. They just lack the belief. Everyone on this planet was born without beliefs including the God belief. In other words we were all born as atheists and remained as atheists until we were introduced to the God concept.

I'm an atheist. That tells you what I do NOT believe in. But what DO I believe in? I'm a secular humanist. My beliefs can be studied and understood by learning about the principles of secular humanism. You can't glean anything about my beliefs by pointing at something I don't believe in. I also don't believe in unicorns. Does my lack of belief in unicorns tell you about my beliefs? Of course not.

Right on cue, the forum owner demonstrates the atheist fundamentalist mindset that denies any evidence contradicting the belief system. My dictionary, The New American College Dictionary, defines "atheism: the doctrine there is no God. Disbelief in the existence of God (or gods). Godlessness."

"Disbelief" is negative belief. Chris and atheists who use this atheist standard simply cannot seem to grasp the fact that holding negative beliefs about things is still holding a belief system. I gave the example somewhere of my experience living in Ojai, CA, the home base of Krishnamurti in America. Krishnamurti was famous for teaching people not to follow gurus, to think for themselves. When meeting the many Krishnamurti followers over the couple of years living in Ojai that teaching of Krishnamurti was often voiced in a sort of "knowing" ridicule of those "other" India guru and/or American wannabes like Stephen Gaskin. These people were convinced they themselves weren't going to let any gurus mislead them as they faithfully followed Krishnamurti's advice. Atheist too are convinced they aren't going to let "belief" interfere with objective observation following standard science class protocols developed by knowledgeable scientists for exposing the irrational beliefs of theists.

[youkrst]

sonoman you define a god and we'll tell you if we believe in it or not, your concept that is.

fair call?

and BTW why did you chicken out of going into your CTC thing? i was fully prepared to go the distance with you and you flunked.

and why the whiny resentment of atheists or whatever you think people are, why not just quietly go about the business of putting forward what you think.

it's like you have a persecution complex or something, it's as if you have a bruised ego, but surely the test of enlightenment is transcendence of ego?!?!

anyways i still love you and am willing to go toe to toe through the tulips of doctrinal wrangling anytime you ever feel like it.

and may your god give you every assistance to stop feeling anything less than blissful.

[stahrwe]

I did not cite atheists in the topic title or initial post. Furthermore, the descriptor, 'Christian' obviously does not, in the context of this discussion, imply a religious application to the empirical discipline. It clearly identifies the category of persons to be included in this discussion. This discussion is also not the place to debate the definition of atheism.