Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

[geo]

I don't see how outlawing articles of clothing is going to do anything except limit personal freedoms. There are many different reasons that Muslims wear the hijab, niqab and burka. Many Muslin women choose to wear these.

These attacks are horrific and I'm not saying they are in any way justified.


Many Muslims in Europe are feeling marginalized including by these kinds of laws. All I'm saying is that it just feeds in to the perceptions of the more extreme groups.
Are they going to stop? No,but it's unwise of governments to introduce heavy handed laws targeting a particular group for no good reason.

I agree, Flann. Freedom of expression is about the closest thing to sacrosanct that I can think of, and it applies to everyone, of all cultures. Just as we must maintain separation of church and state, we must also protect freedom of expression and freedom of religion. They are intertwined.

I just saw Spielberg's movie, Bridge of Spies, about an American lawyer who must constantly justify his belief that a Russian spy deserves the strongest possible legal defense. Because how we treat others defines us as a nation. It's one of the more salient themes of the movie.

[DWill]

Good points raised, Flann and geo. The only country I know of that has banned the niquab (common term for Muslim headscarf that also covers all or part of the face) is France. The French did this for both security and social-cohesion reasons. Note that any old dude wearing a balaclava would also be subject to the ban; it's not just for Muslims. Contrary to what some might believe, the bulky burka full-body covering isn't banned if it happens not to include the face cover. People will find a way to carry bombs around in their clothing; banning some types of clothing to prevent this is futile.

I sometimes wear a balaclava for bike riding in winter. Lucky I don't live in France.

[Gnostic Bishop]

I don't see how outlawing articles of clothing is going to do anything except limit personal freedoms. There are many different reasons that Muslims wear the hijab, niqab and burka. Many Muslin women choose to wear these. As with Christianity, religious expression has a very wide range. So, yes, the burka especially can be seen as a symbol of oppression, but it's used in many other contexts as well.

The recent news in Paris doesn't change my mind on this issue. I don't think outlawing the burka is going to do anything to alter the path of Islamic extremism, which must be dealt with by the civilized world in the harshest possible manner..

Gnostic's link has some good info.

http://cloudmind.info/hijab-niqab-and-burka-faq/

I agree that there is next to nothing except to outlaw Islam to rid ourselves of the violent jihadist extremists, --- but they will always find a place to roost.

What I want to happen with a ban or even the discussion of it is to have the moderate Muslims recognize that the cornerstone of Western law and morality is equality of the sexes and that they must grant that to their wives and female children.

That is where our culture clash begins and that is where the end of that clash will also begin.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

I don't see how outlawing articles of clothing is going to do anything except limit personal freedoms. There are many different reasons that Muslims wear the hijab, niqab and burka. Many Muslin women choose to wear these.

These attacks are horrific and I'm not saying they are in any way justified.


Many Muslims in Europe are feeling marginalized including by these kinds of laws. All I'm saying is that it just feeds in to the perceptions of the more extreme groups.
Are they going to stop? No,but it's unwise of governments to introduce heavy handed laws targeting a particular group for no good reason.
Here's how the debate is presented in relation to France. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkitwC9HSOc

Not the best debate but interesting.

I recognize that I am in the minority on this issue but when I think of Islam I think of all the various misogynistic rules of which the apparel in question is just a small part.

In my thinking I look at their rape law, their child bride law and their female genital mutilation laws, just to name a few.

For these reasons I am anti-Islam. The misogyny and denial of equality is also why I dislike Christianity.

In the link given, the example was given where if a woman was banned from wearing a veil in public, her husband would force her to stay in the home.

That is the type of misogynous and just wrong headed thinking that Islam spawns and to have Canadian women who are free by law to have their freedom denied them by men must never be allowed or encouraged by allowing women to be told what to wear by anyone but the law of the land.

We are nations of laws. Not nations where Muslim men can deny their wives and daughters the freedom that Canadian men and women have fought and died for. That should apply to all Western nations.

You may not think these good reasons for a ban but I do.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

I don't see how outlawing articles of clothing is going to do anything except limit personal freedoms. There are many different reasons that Muslims wear the hijab, niqab and burka. Many Muslin women choose to wear these.

These attacks are horrific and I'm not saying they are in any way justified.


Many Muslims in Europe are feeling marginalized including by these kinds of laws. All I'm saying is that it just feeds in to the perceptions of the more extreme groups.
Are they going to stop? No,but it's unwise of governments to introduce heavy handed laws targeting a particular group for no good reason.

I agree, Flann. Freedom of expression is about the closest thing to sacrosanct that I can think of, and it applies to everyone, of all cultures. Just as we must maintain separation of church and state, we must also protect freedom of expression and freedom of religion. They are intertwined.

I just saw Spielberg's movie, Bridge of Spies, about an American lawyer who must constantly justify his belief that a Russian spy deserves the strongest possible legal defense. Because how we treat others defines us as a nation. It's one of the more salient themes of the movie.

No argument but freedom of religion is not at issue because there is nothing in Islam that demands the wearing of such apparel. In fact, in the Hajj, such apparel is not allowed and the Hajj is one of Islam's most holy rites.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Good points raised, Flann and geo. The only country I know of that has banned the niquab (common term for Muslim headscarf that also covers all or part of the face) is France. The French did this for both security and social-cohesion reasons. Note that any old dude wearing a balaclava would also be subject to the ban; it's not just for Muslims. Contrary to what some might believe, the bulky burka full-body covering isn't banned if it happens not to include the face cover. People will find a way to carry bombs around in their clothing; banning some types of clothing to prevent this is futile.

I sometimes wear a balaclava for bike riding in winter. Lucky I don't live in France.

That, like a bike helmet would likely not get fined.

You reach to far for your argument. To the point of ridiculousness.

Regards
DL

[DWill]

Not the best debate but interesting.

I recognize that I am in the minority on this issue but when I think of Islam I think of all the various misogynistic rules of which the apparel in question is just a small part.

In my thinking I look at their rape law, their child bride law and their female genital mutilation laws, just to name a few.

For these reasons I am anti-Islam. The misogyny and denial of equality is also why I dislike Christianity.

In the link given, the example was given where if a woman was banned from wearing a veil in public, her husband would force her to stay in the home.

That is the type of misogynous and just wrong headed thinking that Islam spawns and to have Canadian women who are free by law to have their freedom denied them by men must never be allowed or encouraged by allowing women to be told what to wear by anyone but the law of the land.

We are nations of laws. Not nations where Muslim men can deny their wives and daughters the freedom that Canadian men and women have fought and died for. That should apply to all Western nations.

You may not think these good reasons for a ban but I do.

Regards
DL

When you say "their" rape law, "their" child bride law, "their" fgm laws, you seem to paint every person who identifies as Muslim as following extremist doctrine. How much experience do you have living in Muslim cultures? I ask not to imply that I have any, either, but unless we base our views on the real-world range of Muslim lives, we don't know what we're talking about. Islam in the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, is far different from Middle Eastern Islam, and illustrates the the complexity of that faith that many people want to ignore, in favor of a more convenient flattened view in which every Muslim lives by the word of the Koran or the hadiths and interprets them in the same ways.

Which specific article of clothing are you proposing banning, by the way? Or would it be any of the traditional female garments? Is it ridiculous to ask why a nun's habits should not also be banned? Contrary to what many might assume, Muslim women aren't generally itching to discard their hijabs and niqabs, which will make liberating them a problem.

[DB Roy]

Indonesian muslims are every bit as bat-shit crazy as the ones in the Middle East and possibly even worse.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/20/world ... wanted=all

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/dec/13/news/mn-53741

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indo ... tian_girls

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/20 ... n-present/

[DWill]

Indonesian muslims are every bit as bat-shit crazy as the ones in the Middle East and possibly even worse.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/20/world ... wanted=all

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/dec/13/news/mn-53741

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indo ... tian_girls

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/20 ... n-present/

I'm sure you could have picked out even more instances of religious violence in Indonesia, though the 1998 hysteria over sorcerers seems more linked to indigenous superstitions and politics than to Islam. And it's true that knowledgeable people have doubted Indonesia's reputation as the world's most tolerant Muslim country. My point is that in terms of governing, Indonesia is more moderate than many other Muslim-majority countries. Being Muslim isn't constitutionally mandated for heads of state. Regarding the thread topic, coverings for women are optional. Other religions are recognized by the state.

Something we have to accept is that to most Westerners, even moderate Muslims seem extremely pious and devout. That quality seem to be built in to that religion to a greater degree than is the case for Christianity.

[DB Roy]

I'm sure you could have picked out even more instances of religious violence in Indonesia, though the 1998 hysteria over sorcerers seems more linked to indigenous superstitions and politics than to Islam.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Islam is a superstition. Islam is deeply embedded in Indonesian politics. Looks like they're linked to me.

And it's true that knowledgeable people have doubted Indonesia's reputation as the world's most tolerant Muslim country. My point is that in terms of governing, Indonesia is more moderate than many other Muslim-majority countries. Being Muslim isn't constitutionally mandated for heads of state. Regarding the thread topic, coverings for women are optional. Other religions are recognized by the state.

Maybe that's why Indonesia is so moderate--Muslims aren't in total control...yet.

Something we have to accept is that to most Westerners, even moderate Muslims seem extremely pious and devout. That quality seem to be built in to that religion to a greater degree than is the case for Christianity.

It's not the piousness that bothers me. It's the hypocrisy. I think there's a correlation--the more pious a people are, the bigger hypocrites they are.