Was Gerald Massey a 19th Cent. Cuckoo Banana-Bird or Was Jesus Volguus Zildrohar lord of the Sebouil

[stahrwe]

BTW, I never said that DM Murdock was a 19th Century Cuckoo Banana-Bird. I merely showed that she was basing her work on the demonstrably false work of Gerald Massey who has been dismissed by all serious Egyptoligists for more than a century.

[stahrwe]

Why did Gerald Massey go wrong?

I came across this and as it was filmed in my backyard at the University of Central Florida, in Orlando, I wanted to share it. Additionally, it provides a context for why Gerald Massey was misguided. It doesn't name GM by name but it does explain the einvironment in which he was working

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AZqOO2FJA

[Robert Tulip]

Why did Gerald Massey go wrong? I came across this and as it was filmed in my backyard at the University of Central Florida, in Orlando, I wanted to share it. Additionally, it provides a context for why Gerald Massey was misguided. It doesn't name GM by name but it does explain the einvironment in which he was working https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AZqOO2FJA

I will leave as stated my concerns that stahrwe is unapologetic about using an illegally copied source in breach of copyright, colluding in theft from the dead after I brought this to his attention, and providing a malicious and abusive thread title slandering a brilliant scholar in Gerald Massey.

If people want to read what stahrwe rudely mistypes as “The Greatest Story Every [sic] Sold” by “Achrya [sic] S” they can buy a copy of The Christ Conspiracy – The Greatest Story Ever Sold at https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conspirac ... 0932813747

The video response that stahrwe links is a five minute rant by a Christian apologist in reply to a serious question about why the Christ Myth has similar stories as myths from a thousand years earlier such as Horus in Egypt. My comments below are based on listening to it once, so you are welcome to check if I have any facts wrong.

Instead of answering the question, the apologist opens a false tirade about what he wrongly calls “garbage”. This is a blatant example of psychological projection, since his own pious beliefs are demonstrably untrue, based only on faith, while the views of the scholars he attacks are generally scientific and plausible, based on evidence.

If people want to understand the conflict between faith and reason this video is a good specimen argument to analyse how faith fails and why religion has such a bad reputation.

He wrongly asserts that all claims of Egyptian origins for Christianity (such as those of Acharya) fail to use primary sources. He should read her book Christ In Egypt – available at https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Egypt-Hor ... bc?ie=UTF8 to see his claim is not true, since Christ In Egypt provides hundreds of pages of primary evidence in response to just this false criticism.

Such spectacular disdain for the material he despises and rejects is evidence that this apologist is a fundamentalist Christian evangelist without concern for evidence or logic. The emotional value system that gives rise to such disdain for facts does not provide a reliable historical method, and his claims should be viewed with doubt.

He says there are no causal connections between ancient religions in Israel and Egypt. This is absurd, given the fact that Egypt ruled Israel for many centuries, including at the alleged time of Moses, putting paid to the Exodus myth. The longevity and stability and location of Egyptian myth, as well as the extensive cultural contact with Israel, provide obvious prima facie indications for Egyptian influence on the territories such as Israel that the Egyptians ruled for a long time. And indeed, the evidence proves the link, but all this is systematically ignored by the Christian tradition who are sucked in to the Bible propaganda about Egypt, and follow the apologetic ruse of not reading things they don’t like.

Treating the Bible as an authoritative source on these questions ignores how the Bible was edited to promote a monotheist agenda, removing or twisting the views of others and creating a highly distorted picture of ancient history.

He says the Gospels had a Jewish backdrop that does not include evolution from pagan religion. That just flatly ignores obvious similarities between Jesus and myths like Serapis, the Greco-Egyptian saviour of the Hellenistic period. On the scientific model of cultural evolution following the same laws as genetic evolution, Serapis is like a transitional fossil figure from Horus to Jesus. The Booktalk discussion at christ-in-egypt-the-alexandrian-roots-o ... 11106.html helps to show the error of the anti-Egypt arguments.

So the apologist in this video from stahrwe, having wrongly claimed there are no sources for Egyptian influence on Christianity, brings out his next appalling error, that claims of pagan influence are just following a German anti-Semitic agenda. He says there is no pagan influence, the Jesus story is only Jewish, and his analysis leaves gospel credibility enhanced. That all makes perfect sense within circular creationist logic, since if you ignore everything else you have to accept the only texts you consider as credible.

Listeners could be forgiving for questioning his failure to note that main writers on comparative myth included French and English scholars who were not advocates of what he calls an “Aryan Jesus”. He seems to think anyone interested in links between Israel and Egypt is a Nazi, in a rather gross violation of Godwin’s Law. This effort at suppression by slander aims to deter access to a wealth of information.

The argument he presents is that some German theology had a pagan myth grid which produced the same anti-Semitism as led to Nazism. His Hitler Fallacy is that all pagan myth should be ignored because some myths were misused by Nazis. His recipe? Ignoring myth means you just listen to narrow bibliolatry, worship of the Bible without context or critical analysis except from circular traditional authorities.

The result of that method is that believers are brainwashed to only hear the versions of history that survived a highly biased editing process whose central principles, from I John 4:3, 2 John 1:7 and Rev 12:9, included the false teaching that anyone who says Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh is a Satanic Anti-Christ deceiver of the world. That message of violent propaganda led to advocacy of alternative views becoming a capital crime for a thousand years in Christendom.

If people want to understand this debate, they should not accept wrong allegations advanced by stahrwe here. The most spectacular error is the claim that Massey failed to refer to primary sources.

The real reason Gerald Massey was despised and rejected by Christians was precisely because he did use primary sources. The Christians of his time did not like that, so they bullied the Egyptology profession not to study this material. The Egypt primary sources studied by Massey provide many similarities between the mythical roles of Egyptian Gods and gospel figures.

Massey’s work provided a great basis to advance Darwin’s theory of evolution from biology into culture. Massey's analysis relies on the assumption that culture evolves. That means he has a similar overall theory of evolution through cumulative adaptation in culture as is found in evolution of species and physical traits.

The church lost the evolution debate in genetics and biology, but had more success in preventing study of cultural evolution. That success came at the price of the church turning itself into a brittle fossilised remnant of an authentic spirituality without ability to engage in dialogue about evidence and logic. Nostalgia for Christendom is not an adaptive formula.

All this is linked to the church persecution of Gnostics, the ancient mystical Christians whose stories produced the fable of Christ. The orthodox ‘right-thinking’ church have a reflex response to reject perceived ‘heresy’. That means orthodox traditional Christians use what George Orwell called ‘crime-stop’, refusing to think about topics that challenge their beliefs. This video is a great psychological case study in the use of crime-stop as a method of illogic.

Here is a map of the ancient Egyptian Empire including Israel, the place that starhwe thinks was not influenced by Egypt. (source)

[Taylor]

The reason the allegory "seems apparent" is that Gerald Massey contrived it that way.

"Contrived" is a two-way street or, as RT put it, "a pot calling the kettle black".

[Flann 5]

The real reason Gerald Massey was despised and rejected by Christians was precisely because he did use primary sources. The Christians of his time did not like that, so they bullied the Egyptology profession not to study this material. The Egypt primary sources studied by Massey provide many similarities between the mythical roles of Egyptian Gods and gospel figures.

Hi Robert. If what you say is true,then provide the primary sources Massey allegedly cites in each of the cases J.P. Holding asks for in this critique of Massey's work. Labelling Holding a fundie apologist will not be taken as an answer to these relevant questions on primary sources.
www.tektonics.org/lp/massjc.php

I've been reading D.M. Murdock's "The Christ Conspiracy" The allegory appears apparent.

There is film on line that has three parts, the first part demonstrates the greatest story ever sold. It is about thirty minutes.

I assume you missed this video when I linked it previously,Taylor. Zeitgeist the movie has been well and truly debunked, repeatedly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azE5baeWTMk

[Taylor]

I assume you missed this video when I linked it previously,Taylor. Zeitgeist the movie has been well and truly debunked, repeatedly.

I may have missed the link, whether I did makes no difference to my point.

Whether or not the movie Zeitgeist has been "debunked" means little too nothing regarding my point.

Taylor wrote:I've been reading D.M. Murdock's "The Christ Conspiracy" The allegory appears apparent. There is film on line that has three parts, the first part demonstrates the greatest story ever sold. It is about thirty minutes.

The portion of film I posted demonstrates the allegory that D.M. Murdock wrote about in her book The Christ Conspiracy-The Greatest Story Ever Sold available at amazon.com/Christ-Conspiracy-Greatest-S ... 0932813747.
the film is a visual aid.

[geo]

BTW, I never said that DM Murdock was a 19th Century Cuckoo Banana-Bird. I merely showed that she was basing her work on the demonstrably false work of Gerald Massey who has been dismissed by all serious Egyptoligists for more than a century.

The idea that Christianity borrowed elements from earlier cultures has been observed by many scholars and historians, both before and since Massey. So even if you could make an argument that Massey was a cuckoo bird, which I doubt, you still not have addressed such observations and conclusions which can be reasonably inferred from these facts.

Indeed, Sir James Frazer's book, The Golden Bough: A Study in Comparative Religion, comes to mind. It was published in 1890 and was probably far more influential than Massey's work. Frazer methodically shows many shared elements of religious belief, including fertility rites, human sacrifice, the dying god, the scapegoat, and many other symbols and practices that date back thousands of years. In particular, Frazer showed that many of the beliefs of fertility cults revolved around the periodic sacrifice of a sacred king. His first edition showed the obvious parallels with Christianity, but such an agnostic reading of a perceived holy text was too much for Christian believers at the time and these references were removed from later editions of the book.

[stahrwe]

In particular, Frazer showed that many of the beliefs of fertility cults revolved around the periodic sacrifice of a sacred king. His first edition showed the obvious parallels with Christianity, but such an agnostic reading of a perceived holy text was too much for Christian believers at the time and these references were removed from later editions of the book.

Geo, what is the basis for this statement? Did Frazier explain the removal or is this someone's, perhaps your's, speculation?

There is an explanation for Frazier and Massey's misdirection as a result of a cultural upheaval at the time. I am in the process of documenting it but am diverted at the moment by my obligation to paperwork which America's favorite uncle demands every April 15th. Spent the day working on it using TurboTax, but when I tried printing the file, the forms printed with blank spaces where the numbers I entered were supposed to be. Tried printing the pdf file from another computer but am getting a communication error and the printer won't print.

[geo]

Geo, what is the basis for this statement? Did Frazier explain the removal or is this someone's, perhaps your's, speculation?

I don't remember where I first heard that, Stahrwe. But this Wikipedia article quotes Edmund Leach, a British social anthropologist, and Jonathan Z. Smith, a historian and religious scholar.

The book scandalized the British public when first published, as it included the Christian story of Jesus and the Resurrection in its comparative study. Critics thought this treatment invited an agnostic reading of the Lamb of God as a relic of a pagan religion. For the third edition, Frazer placed his analysis of the Crucifixion in a speculative appendix; the discussion of Christianity was excluded from the single-volume abridged edition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough

[FTL99]

I'm reminded of Flann 5 trolling the "Christ in Egypt" thread with the same misinformation and smears about Gerald Massey
christ-in-egypt-the-mythicist-position-t11155-120.html

My response to Flann 5, including a response regarding Gerald Massey
christ-in-egypt-the-mythicist-position-t11155-135.html

"Flann 5 insists on merely regurgitating false information from the net about Gerald Massey by others who also have no idea what they're talking about. The fact is that Gerald Massey was very heavily peer-reviewed by the top Egyptologists and other scholars of his day. A factoid that people like Flann 5 insist on omitting. Again, most of Massey's work has been substantiated by modern Egyptologists independently. If you read "Christ in Egypt" you'd already know that - but Flann 5 and other bigoted trolls have to omit these facts:

Who Is Gerald Massey?

stahrwe: "Why did Gerald Massey go wrong?

I came across this and as it was filmed in my backyard at the University of Central Florida, in Orlando, I wanted to share it. Additionally, it provides a context for why Gerald Massey was misguided..."

Here's a response to that too:

William Lane Craig on Jesus-Osiris/Horus Parallels--DEBUNKED

Here's a response to the Labarum video:

Labarum / Albert Mcilhenny: Xian Fundy Pseudo-Skeptic

"The Mythicist case has been rebutted? Really? When did that happen? The arguments of the Mythicist camp have never been refuted - they have only been steadfastly ignored." "...As for this tiresome business about there being "no scholar" or "no serious scholar" who advocates the Christ Myth theory: Isn't it obvious that scholarly communities are defined by certain axioms in which grad students are trained, and that they will lose standing in those communities if they depart from those axioms? The existence of an historical Jesus is currently one of those. That should surprise no one, especially with the rightward lurch of the Society for Biblical Literature in recent years. It simply does not matter how many scholars hold a certain opinion.... "

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's

Scholars who've actually studied Acharya's work tend to be supportive:

"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations." "I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock"
- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's

Earl Doherty defers to Acharya for the subject of astrotheology:

"A heavenly location for the actions of the savior gods, including the death of Christ, would also have been influenced by most religions' ultimate derivation from astrotheology, as in the worship of the sun and moon. For this dimension of more remote Christian roots, see the books of Acharya S"
- Earl Doherty, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man, (2009) page 153

"Your scholarship is relentless! ...the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."
- Dr. Ken Feder, Professor of Archaeology

"...In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism ... when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to tonights guest D.M. Murdock,author of 'Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver'."
- Aron Ra, The Ra Men podcast EP10 - Did Moses Exist? with D.M. Murdock

"I've known people with triple Ph.D's who haven't come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?"
- Pastor David Bruce, M.Div

"...I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating."
- Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor

"I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!"
- Dr. Robert Eisenman

I'm sure stahrwe will omit all the responses as always and continue to troll and spread false information in order to shore-up his Christian faith & euphoria at all costs - even if it means being dishonest. Jesus would be ashamed.