New Dawkins book: "The God Delusion"

[Chris OConnor]

Whether or not pickles taste good is an entirely subjective subject. Whether or not a God exists is entirely objective. Either a God exists or doesn't exist. Someone is right and someone is dead wrong. So I don't think you're using a valid analogy.There is no evidence for the existence of any sort of deity, so Dawkins makes sense when he compares the god-belief to the belief in tea cups orbiting Mars. Both make no sense and neither is supported by evidence.

[Mr. P]

I really dont give a shit if people believe in god...but when it gets to the point where these people want to teach religion in science class (which they try to disguise as science) and when people want to insert their religious texts into a secular based governement, and when people use their beliefs to justify killing thousands of people in Crusades or Jihads....then I do not feel that the onus is on atheists to justify SHIT about how we feel about people who believe in imaginary beings without proof.If it gets you through your 75+/- years, more power to you...just keep it the fuck out of my face. Deal?Of course there is no deal...because even those who believe that are not extreme would NEVER take sides against people who are a duped as they are. They decry the terrorism and other extreme manifestations...but they still support the basis these extremists function under.Not many theists or other believers are making headlines and calling for tolerance of atheists, are there? Like we need to be tolerated.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MaesterAuron151]

I'm afraid what you're talking about will never work. Unfortunately to a muslim terrorists, they're right, you're wrong, they're good you're bad, they're going to meet 72 virgins in paradice, you're going to burn in the fires of Alah's wrath. To them you're just a demon sent to test their faith. If you want to convince a devote religous observer that he's doing something wrong simply find something in his doctrine which condemns his actions. Ethnocentrism wont work help the world. If you want to convince someone to stop doing something find a reason against it on their terms not someone elses. If you want to convince a Christian that killing in gods name is wrong the easiest way is not convincing him that god doesn't exist. The easiest way is to simply hand him a bible and point out the sections in which Jesus condemns violence.

[Mr. P]

Anyone can use the bible or any text to make whatever point they want to make...so your way will not help at all.Besides, your the one casting the intolerance stone at atheists...look around...in this country at least, it is quote the opposite.I try not to convert adults. My methods are to reach the kids...to talk to young people and try to show them that what their parents tell them may not be the whole bag of apples.Your young...you still have some hope. Open your eyes as much as you think you already do.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MaesterAuron151]

Quote:Anyone can use the bible or any text to make whatever point they want to make...so your way will not help at all.Its more helpful then ethnocentrism. Has anyone even tried it. I don't see anyone makeing any attempt at it at all. I see religous groups fighting over who's right, and a small crowd of athiests shouting "stop you're both wrong". Its not going to accomplish anything, you need to make a real connection with people in order to solve the problem of bigotry.Quote:Besides, your the one casting the intolerance stone at atheists...look around...in this country at least, it is quote the opposite.In my experiance the average person who believes in god couldn't care less if someone's an athiest. Maybe the devote followers get pissed off but you're typical observer doesn't mind at all. In my experiance I've never met an atheist (with the potential exeption of you) who thinks its totally fine if other people want to believe in god. If you want to be an athiest thats fine but don't rub everyone's face in it.Quote:I try not to convert adults. My methods are to reach the kids...to talk to young people and try to show them that what their parents tell them may not be the whole bag of apples.How young? Are you talking about people my age or people like five to ten years old. If its the latter i can't support that. I agree with Dawkins that you shouldn't try to push a belief on a child who doesn't yet understand such complex matters.Quote:Your young...you still have some hope. Open your eyes as much as you think you already do.What's that suposed to mean?

[Mr. P]

Quote:Its more helpful then ethnocentrism. You brought up ethnocentrism...not me. I do not know why either.Quote:In my experiance What IS your experience? My experience speaks of a different conclusion.Quote:who thinks its totally fine if other people want to believe in godHow many atheists have you met and really interacted with?Quote:How young? Are you talking about people my age or people like five to ten years old. Whoever is willing to listen. I do not PUSH anything...that is where your wrong. I promote people to question things and think about what they are told. I also tell them what I believe. I do not force pre-meditated crap down their throats.I treat all people as capable...and I talk to them accordingly. Like is a niece asks me about my beliefs or lack thereof...I speak very frankly and explain when they ask why. I do not say "BE AN ATHEIST OR THE FSM WILL SEND YOU TO THE DARK PASTA BOWL!" Like Christians in MY experience have done. (Raised Catholic, I am 36).That you assume I push ideas on people is very telling about how you see things.Quote:What's that suposed to mean? Read it again. I am usually very blunt and non-cryptic.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MaesterAuron151]

Quote:You brought up ethnocentrism...not me. I do not know why either.Judgement by the standards of one's own culture. You're judging fundementalists based on you're beliefs and culture. The problem with that is fundementalists will not have any respect for you're beliefs you need to hit them where it hurts. You need to show them that their faith condemns thier actions. If it still doesn't work all you can do is make sure they don't harm anyone.Quote:How many atheists have you met and really interacted with?Well let me see. I can think of two who I know quite well that were openly athiest. And probably a dozen who were probabl also atheists.Mind you the reason I'm saying its wrong for an atheist to act in a dogmatic manner is cause thats what I'm seeing right now. If I were on a christian forum in which christians were being bigots I'd also be against their views.Quote:Whoever is willing to listen. I do not PUSH anything...that is where your wrong. I promote people to question things and think about what they are told. I also tell them what I believe. I do not force pre-meditated crap down their throats.Ok thats fine. You should have specified.Quote:I treat all people as capable...and I talk to them accordingly. Like is a niece asks me about my beliefs or lack thereof...I speak very frankly and explain when they ask why. I do not say "BE AN ATHEIST OR THE FSM WILL SEND YOU TO THE DARK PASTA BOWL!" Like Christians in MY experience have done. (Raised Catholic, I am 36).I was also raised catholic and no one ever berated me with prophecys of doom.Quote:That you assume I push ideas on people is very telling about how you see things.No its telling about how what you wrote was worded.Quote:Read it again. I am usually very blunt and non-cryptic.It sounded like you were saying there's potential for me to become an athiest. Which I doubt. If you'll read one of my threads you'll find I have another belief system worked out.

[Chris OConnor]

Quote:...I have another belief ystem worked out.Atheism is not a belief system at all. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a God or gods, despite what theist-authored dictionaries seem to say. The questions I'm asking you are...1. Do you believe in a God or gods?2. Do you claim to know that you are right about your beliefs?

[MaesterAuron151]

1. Yes I've explained elsewhere my concept of god2. Absolutely not. I'm no hypocrit.

[Chris OConnor]

So you are an agnostic theist.You are "agnostic" because you don't claim to have knowledge of the existence of a deity. You are a "theist" because, despite your lack of knowing, you still believe.