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Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Azrael
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Please bear in mind that there have been many, intelligent, educated and admirable religious people.
Not saying they haven't been such people as there have been plenty. Religion is a major cause of most wars with the exception of the few it has not caused.
That is a very immature attitude to religion.
No its not. Thats seeing it for what it is. I guess thats where we differ. Just because religion says its fact or its written in some 1600 year old book does not make it right.
But it is OK to feel good and to seek that which makes one feel good, not out of a bottle, or not smoking illegal substances....just having a 'right' attitude as the Buddha calls it.
Not saying its not again. Even myths and lies can make people feel good if they don't know the difference or don't bother to investigate it on their own. I do not have a problem with religion, the problem I have is the way some religions go about using it as both a scare tactic and condemnation tool. Using things like "Hell" and "eternal damnation" as a way to scare and intimidate people into a sect of religion. And since you brought up Buddha I do not have a problem with Buddhism.
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Star Burst wrote:Devout and strict Christianity is practiced by millions yet why do people base their lives off of myth? Many of the stories and myths are older than the religion itself. None of the features or characters are new and Jesus himself is not even unique just one of many Jesus that lived at the time and weather he lived or did not live is not important. Its all archetypal. Religious mythical figures created by real people to snowball the masses. Christianity is not special or unique never as been never will be. It just enlarges older mythological themes and then adds wonders and miracles to create a seemingly perfect religion.
Thanks Star Burst, these are very insightful comments and questions. People do not believe that the universe can be comprehended by human reason. Yet there is a universal desire for explanation, even where evidence is lacking. This attitude creates the opening for explanatory narratives, myths if you will, to compete for popular acceptance. All explanatory narratives have this mythic structure, combining a kernel of factual knowledge with a surrounding embroidery of fanciful belief. Even modern science is not immune from mythic thinking, in its associations with the narrative explanation of economic progress through technological innovation, which has historic roots in the JudeoChristian idea of dominion over nature.

How I see the popularity of Christianity is that the Gospels do hook in to the primal desire for perfect religion, but as you say, "seemingly" rather than in fact. "Devout and strict Christianity is practiced by millions" because it provides an internally coherent ethical and moral narrative that has been enormously successful. The USA pilgrim fathers on the Mayflower who landed at Plymouth Rock set the tone. Early rules included the practice of nailing people's ears to trees if they missed Sunday worship. This intense cruelty had the premise that community obedience and cohesion are destroyed by heresy and backsliding. Modern fundamentalist puritans are not allowed to enforce their cults with such barbaric practices, but some probably would if they could.

The problem with this use of faith as the glue of community cohesion is that it removes the ability to question and doubt. Modern progress has arisen from scientific doubt, putting the entire schema of faith into radical question. If faith is about nailing people's ears to trees, it seems to be evil. Part of the myth of scientific atheism is, in Hitchens' term, that religion poisons everything.

I don't think your description of Christianity as "enlarging" myth is quite right. What really happened was that older myths were transformed and united into a believable historic narrative. For example, the myth of Serapis was very similar to Christianity, but suffered from the defect (in terms of mass appeal) that its adherents accepted and admitted from the start that Serapis was an invented fantasy. The designers of Christianity saw that this admission was a crucial failure, so the stories about Jesus had to be presented as believable history.

What I find interesting is the way an esoteric ancient mythology is encoded into the Gospels, especially around the theme that heaven is the heavens. This cosmic myth was suppressed with utmost fanaticism and violence in the Dark Ages. We are now at the cusp of being able to talk about it publicly again, but the mentality of suppression remains dominant overall.
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Good post Robert....I agree with most of it.
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stahrwe

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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Penelope wrote:
Stahrwe wrote:

Prosaic, me, really?
No, not you. I was talking to Star Burst.
Stahrwe wrote:

So was mine. What has that got to do God? My kids probably think I am. What, because I am a jerk there is no God? C'mon Penelope, I know you are smarter than that.
No, you are deliberately misunderstanding me. God is not a man!!! Not a woman either, but it seems wrong to refer to 'it'. We have no pronoun to fit. We don't know what he/she/it is, so we try to visualise something to our own psychological 'comfort fit'. I don't think God would mind. You do. Amen.

The Jolly Green giant appears on cans of Sweetcorn.

The Green Man goes back into pre-christian, pre Roman Britain. It is the old religion.

I was just attempting to point out to Star, who is a rather aggressive poster, that just because one is fanciful and imaginative, doesn't mean you're a bad person.

In fact, I was just trying to smooth his ruffled feathers. To no avail, obviously.
Sorry, Interbane calls me 'Star' so I tend to key on that. Should have realized it was Star Burst.
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stahrwe

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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Star Burst wrote:Devout and strict Christianity is practiced by millions yet why do people base their lives off of myth? Many of the stories and myths are older than the religion itself. None of the features or characters are new and Jesus himself is not even unique just one of many Jesus that lived at the time and weather he lived or did not live is not important. Its all archetypal. Religious mythical figures created by real people to snowball the masses. Christianity is not special or unique never as been never will be. It just enlarges older mythological themes and then adds wonders and miracles to create a seemingly perfect religion.
In fact you are correct when you say that there were others named Jesus who lived at the time our Lord did. But you betray ignorance when you say that He was not unique. Was He not unique because there were others named Jesus? That is a common name today. Does the fact that there is a candy named Star Burst mean you are not unique. Do you know who Gamaliel was? He entertained the very question of Jesus' uniqueness. What did he say the determining factor would be?
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stahrwe

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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Robert Tulip wrote:
Star Burst wrote:Devout and strict Christianity is practiced by millions yet why do people base their lives off of myth? Many of the stories and myths are older than the religion itself. None of the features or characters are new and Jesus himself is not even unique just one of many Jesus that lived at the time and weather he lived or did not live is not important. Its all archetypal. Religious mythical figures created by real people to snowball the masses. Christianity is not special or unique never as been never will be. It just enlarges older mythological themes and then adds wonders and miracles to create a seemingly perfect religion.
Thanks Star Burst, these are very insightful comments and questions. People do not believe that the universe can be comprehended by human reason. Yet there is a universal desire for explanation, even where evidence is lacking. This attitude creates the opening for explanatory narratives, myths if you will, to compete for popular acceptance. All explanatory narratives have this mythic structure, combining a kernel of factual knowledge with a surrounding embroidery of fanciful belief. Even modern science is not immune from mythic thinking, in its associations with the narrative explanation of economic progress through technological innovation, which has historic roots in the JudeoChristian idea of dominion over nature.

How I see the popularity of Christianity is that the Gospels do hook in to the primal desire for perfect religion, but as you say, "seemingly" rather than in fact. "Devout and strict Christianity is practiced by millions" because it provides an internally coherent ethical and moral narrative that has been enormously successful. The USA pilgrim fathers on the Mayflower who landed at Plymouth Rock set the tone. Early rules included the practice of nailing people's ears to trees if they missed Sunday worship. This intense cruelty had the premise that community obedience and cohesion are destroyed by heresy and backsliding. Modern fundamentalist puritans are not allowed to enforce their cults with such barbaric practices, but some probably would if they could.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt since Penelope is a fan of yours and assume you are like the proverbial man who got on a horse and rode off in every direction at once. On that basis, perhaps you have so many things zipping around in your brain that you can't make sense of them and things spill out which are misleading. First of all, to refer to 'modern fundamentalist puritans' is wrong and misleading and frankly I suspect that you know that but used the terms anyway since there is a certain prejudice associated with them. Second, the practice you refer to of nailing ears links to WilliamsBurg, not Plymouth. Williamsburg is not even contemporaneous with the Pilgrims. There was a contemporaneous colony, The Virginia Colony, though it had religious elements it was primarily an economic venture and had issues with lawful behavior. I have read Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation and saw nothing in it of like kind regarding forced church attendence. In fact, though only half of the passengers on the Mayflower were Pilgrims, the first year in America was spent with the healthy caring for the ill and eventually entering into a peace treaty with the local Indians which would last for 50 years.

Two very different colonies, neither of them Williamsburg, established for two very different purposes. I suppose that as you are not American our history may be conflated for you but I suggest that you be more careful in the future.
robert tulip wrote:The problem with this use of faith as the glue of community cohesion is that it removes the ability to question and doubt. Modern progress has arisen from scientific doubt, putting the entire schema of faith into radical question. If faith is about nailing people's ears to trees, it seems to be evil. Part of the myth of scientific atheism is, in Hitchens' term, that religion poisons everything.
This is encouraging.
robert tulip wrote:I don't think your description of Christianity as "enlarging" myth is quite right. What really happened was that older myths were transformed and united into a believable historic narrative. For example, the myth of Serapis was very similar to Christianity, but suffered from the defect (in terms of mass appeal) that its adherents accepted and admitted from the start that Serapis was an invented fantasy. The designers of Christianity saw that this admission was a crucial failure, so the stories about Jesus had to be presented as believable history.

What I find interesting is the way an esoteric ancient mythology is encoded into the Gospels, especially around the theme that heaven is the heavens. This cosmic myth was suppressed with utmost fanaticism and violence in the Dark Ages. We are now at the cusp of being able to talk about it publicly again, but the mentality of suppression remains dominant overall.
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Stahrwe wrote to Robert Tulip:

I will give you the benefit of the doubt since Penelope is a fan of yours and assume you are like the proverbial man who got on a horse and rode off in every direction at once.
You mean as opposed to doggedly going in one blinkered direction?

Robert, indeed thinks 'big'. But being of monumental intelligence (I know this because I read his posts carefully - not always following them, I grant you) can think big but logically and having some classical education, can follow men's concepts, throughout the ages.

I am indeed a fan. He has been very patient and helps us to understand some rather oblique theories. I have never known him to be insulting, or talk down to anyone. That is why I am a fan.
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Even at that I have read that even if it were proven that the Christian doctrine was based on a myth Christianity would more than likely live through it though I don't see how?
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Star Burst said:

Even at that I have read that even if it were proven that the Christian doctrine was based on a myth Christianity would more than likely live through it though I don't see how?
I rather think it might be because the actual teachings of Jesus, about respecting all men and women, and loving ones neighbour as oneself, are very sound teachings and help to keep communities cohesive and humane. Now, I don't say that they are humane, I only say that the teachings of Jesus help towards that.

It is 'right' behaviour. We recognise it when we see it, we just don't always do it. Gautama Buddha taught almost exactly the same and that is probably why his religion grew too. It works. Christianity, like Buddhism, works.....It is just not practised.
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Re: Devout Christianity! Living the Myth!

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Depends on what you mean by works?
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