Epistemology and Biblical Evidence

[stahrwe]

But as Sigmund once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I am afraid that in this case there is obviously no hidden meaning.

Sometimes a myth is just a myth. Rather than it being a story of miracles and supernatural events and impossible facts. You're confusing which of the two positions is more credible. Even if Roberts ideas seem outlandish, they are a thousand times more parsimonious than to claim that biblical events actually happened.

You're smarter than to allow your bias to allow you to believe this is true.

[Interbane]

You're smarter than to allow your bias to allow you to believe this is true.

Nice try.

A) The laws of nature veer off their course during a portion of history, miracles happen, contemporary sources are strangely silent.

B) Men fabricated the events, and phrased cryptic observations of movements in the stars in their works.



Give me a fucking break.

[stahrwe]

You're smarter than to allow your bias to allow you to believe this is true.

Nice try.

A) The laws of nature veer off their course during a portion of history, miracles happen, contemporary sources are strangely silent.

B) Men fabricated the events, and phrased cryptic observations of movements in the stars in their works.



Give me a fucking break.

I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.

And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.

you would be well served to check the validity of anti-Biblical claims before parrotting them.

[Interbane]

I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.

You're blind to your own stupidity. There aren't words to describe it. The bible has been proven wrong, yet you cling to it. Not only that, but you push it on young minds. No wonder our country is falling behind in scientific advancement. Other countries are surpassing us or gaining on us in education that's vital to our future, and YOU and people who believe the same as you ARE TO BLAME. My harsh language is nothing compared to the crimes you're committing to propogating this nonsense that is proven false. You're ruining the future of our country.

And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.

I'm supposed to believe every human on Earth, including newborn infants, were completely evil, based on some obscure reference that doesn't even support the supernatural events? Isn't that the jewish bible? What corroboration do THEY have? What events do they supposedly corroborate?

If there is contemporary evidence that supports some mass feeding, that IS NOT evidence for ANY OTHER part of the bible. It IS ONLY evidence for a mass feeding. It IS NOT evidence that the mass feeding was performed by conjuring up food. It IS ONLY evidence that a bunch of people ate food.

The parameters for what constitutes evidence and what that evidence supports are VASTLY more strict that you think. For even the most mundane parts of the bible to be well supported, there would need to be DOZENS of indisputable contemporary sources which matched up on many various events of Jesus' life. EVEN THEN, such evidence would ONLY support the parts they reference. EVEN THEN, they would ONLY support mundane events, not supernatural events. For supernatural events to be supported as TRUE rather than FABRICATED, you'd need to show that such things are possible. No corroborated experiment has EVER found such things to be possible. They are man-made fantasies.

At the same time, you're brainwashed into thinking that some scientific theories somehow skirt this strict requirement, or that a handful of people are able to hoodwink millions, or that some worldwide conspiracy theory is afoot.

[stahrwe]

I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.

You're blind to your own stupidity. There aren't words to describe it. The bible has been proven wrong, yet you cling to it. Not only that, but you push it on young minds. No wonder our country is falling behind in scientific advancement. Other countries are surpassing us or gaining on us in education that's vital to our future, and YOU and people who believe the same as you ARE TO BLAME. My harsh language is nothing compared to the crimes you're committing to propogating this nonsense that is proven false. You're ruining the future of our country.

And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.

I'm supposed to believe every human on Earth, including newborn infants, were completely evil, based on some obscure reference that doesn't even support the supernatural events? Isn't that the jewish bible? What corroboration do THEY have? What events do they supposedly corroborate?

If there is contemporary evidence that supports some mass feeding, that IS NOT evidence for ANY OTHER part of the bible. It IS ONLY evidence for a mass feeding. It IS NOT evidence that the mass feeding was performed by conjuring up food. It IS ONLY evidence that a bunch of people ate food.

The parameters for what constitutes evidence and what that evidence supports are VASTLY more strict that you think. For even the most mundane parts of the bible to be well supported, there would need to be DOZENS of indisputable contemporary sources which matched up on many various events of Jesus' life. EVEN THEN, such evidence would ONLY support the parts they reference. EVEN THEN, they would ONLY support mundane events, not supernatural events. For supernatural events to be supported as TRUE rather than FABRICATED, you'd need to show that such things are possible. No corroborated experiment has EVER found such things to be possible. They are man-made fantasies.

Take a deep breath and read the above paragraph. You are demanding that in order to validate a miracle I must be able to duplicate the miracle in a lab. Talk about a logical trainwreck. And as for why we are falling behind in math and science, it is because we have an education system which for too long has rewarded mediocraty, has refused to measure achievement, permits lazy and disinterested teachers to remain on the job. As far as the students go, our culture ridicules the studios as nerds and celebrates the sexually obsessed, beer swilling, academic underachiever as the model. That my friend if what damages our kids and holds our eduction system back.

At the same time, you're brainwashed into thinking that some scientific theories somehow skirt this strict requirement, or that a handful of people are able to hoodwink millions, or that some worldwide conspiracy theory is afoot.[/quote]

[Interbane]

You are demanding that in order to validate a miracle I must be able to duplicate the miracle in a lab. Talk about a logical trainwreck.

No, that's not what I'm demanding. YOU read the paragraph again.

That my friend if what damages our kids and holds our eduction system back.

Of course there are multiple causes. Are you denying that your anti-scientific propoganda is not one of the causes?

It is, and it's despicable.

[stahrwe]

You are demanding that in order to validate a miracle I must be able to duplicate the miracle in a lab. Talk about a logical trainwreck.

No, that's not what I'm demanding. YOU read the paragraph again.

That my friend if what damages our kids and holds our eduction system back.

I read it again, I don't see any difference between what it says and what I interpreted it to mean.

Of course there are multiple causes. Are you denying that your anti-scientific propoganda is not one of the causes?

It is, and it's despicable.

I am indeed stating for the record not only that religion and Christianity are not in any way culpable but that the whole concept of YEC is also in no way a factor in the low level of education in this country. Look at education in the US prior to the 1960's and after.

[johnson1010]

So...

Demanding that a claim that defies ALL known instances of natural behavior have proof is rediculous.

Damanding that we accept the claim itself AS proof of the event that flies in the face of all known instances of natural behavior is not rediculous.

It is a logical trainwreck to think miracles are impossible by their definition.

Star, once again..... sigh.

This is the god exception. Using evidence serves us well in all matters of life and it is to be relied upon with our very lives, over and over again, in all instances.... except when it comes to your favorite fairy tale.

Then, nothing is off the table, nothing is impossible, we should believe absolutely everything, because the dehydrated brains of bronze-age clan-cheifs took their deluded hand-me-down creation myths and scribbled them on paper.

This is a reasonable excuse to abondon all your personal past experience and believe a guy can multiply bread by waving his hand over it and casting a spell.

[stahrwe]

So...

Demanding that a claim that defies ALL known instances of natural behavior have proof is rediculous.

Damanding that we accept the claim itself AS proof of the event that flies in the face of all known instances of natural behavior is not rediculous.

It is a logical trainwreck to think miracles are impossible by their definition.

Star, once again..... sigh.

first of all, thank you for posting.
Second, you are missing the point of the game. The fun part is what I have to do to prove a miracle can happen is to perform a miracle. Now you must admit that an atheist should be able to sit back and smile at the irony of that as a YEC spins out like a dervish trying to do that.

This is the god exception. Using evidence serves us well in all matters of life and it is to be relied upon with our very lives, over and over again, in all instances.... except when it comes to your favorite fairy tale.

Then, nothing is off the table, nothing is impossible, we should believe absolutely everything, because the dehydrated brains of bronze-age clan-cheifs took their deluded hand-me-down creation myths and scribbled them on paper.

This is a reasonable excuse to abondon all your personal past experience and believe a guy can multiply bread by waving his hand over it and casting a spell.

You are assuming that we take God to be our deus ex machina. That is not the case at all. And you misunderstand the nature of what happened with the bread and fish. It was not a 'spell' which invokes an external force, and I believe a practitioner of same would tell you that the force involved was a natural one (where is a witch when you need one) while what Jesus did, He did of Himself.

[Interbane]

I read it again, I don't see any difference between what it says and what I interpreted it to mean.

Right, your undistilled bias only allows you to interpret things in a way which supports your position, even if the author intends something completely different. Here: 'there is no evidence nor reasoning which shows that any miracle has ever happened.'

Which, in the context of my paragraph, is a MINOR point. Why do you so convenienly ignore the other points I made? Do you think you have a good understanding of observation and induction and the epistemic limits of science and evidence? Because you don't, and that is a MAJOR point.

I am indeed stating for the record not only that religion and Christianity are not in any way culpable but that the whole concept of YEC is also in no way a factor in the low level of education in this country. Look at education in the US prior to the 1960's and after.

You admitted to teaching children that abiogenesis was impossible by putting lego's in a bag, or some such nonsense. It doesn't matter what you "state for the record". The fact is, you're helping to undermine US education. You're "teaching" children to mistrust science. Do you actually believe your equivocations and rationalizations?