• In total there are 29 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 28 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 880 on Fri Jun 28, 2024 11:45 am

How did you stop believing?

Engage in conversations about worldwide religions, cults, philosophy, atheism, freethought, critical thinking, and skepticism in this forum.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
13
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

I am sorry if the wonder of having a life on earth and the joy of loving other human beings (and animals and plants too) seeing nature, learning about all the wonderful things the people who preceded us have created for our benefit, the music the art, the architecture etc. does not seem to satisfy so many people.

I'm not certain how you've concluded that "so many people" (of various religions, I'm guessing) are not satisfied with loving others, appreciating the beauty of nature, art, music, etc. etc.

Most religious people I know are NOT anxious to get this life over with because they are miserable and want to go to heaven.
Actually, many people I know of faith do in fact appreciate all they have that much more and feel blessed to have been given the gift of life, which to them, is truly the greatest gift of all.

Friedrich Nietzsche had a similar belief about religion. My recollection is that he felt religion served as an escape mechanism for those that were miserable with their circumstances.
Nietzsche also advised that one should consider the philosopher when weighing what the philosopher preaches.
Nietzsche, although brilliant, was himself a miserable individual. He was reclusive most of his life and had enormous difficulties relating to the opposite sex. It's ironic that he'd say what he did.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2730 times
Been thanked: 2666 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

Ant, I think you misunderstood Lady of Shallot here. Her point was that if people were satisfied with reality, they would not have to invent fantasy. People are not satisfied with real life, so religion invents an afterlife.

Anyone who believes in an afterlife (ie all orthodox adherents of Abrahamic faiths, etc), is by definition not satisfied with reality.

Many people of faith do not believe in an afterlife. But those people are not who Lady of Shallot was talking about.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
13
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:Ant, I think you misunderstood Lady of Shallot here. Her point was that if people were satisfied with reality, they would not have to invent fantasy. People are not satisified with real life, so religion invents an afterlife.

Anyone who believes in an afterlife (ie all orthodox adherents of Abrahamic faiths, etc), is by definition not satisfied with reality.

Many people of faith do not believe in an afterlife. But those people are not who Lady of Shallot was talking about.

Hi Robert,


I did understand what she was saying.

The religious people I know are satisfied and grateful with life, despite believing in an afterlife.
I thought I had clearly stated that.

Ant wrote:
Most religious people I know are NOT anxious to get this life over with because they are miserable and want to go to heaven.
Actually, many people I know of faith do in fact appreciate all they have that much more and feel blessed to have been given the gift of life, which to them, is truly the greatest gift of all.
:)
Last edited by ant on Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2730 times
Been thanked: 2666 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

ant wrote:The religious people I know are satisfied and grateful with life, despite believing in an afterlife.
Sorry to be pedantic here, but I think this issue of attitudes towards the afterlife touches on a key problem in religious thought.

To be satisfied with something means to consider that it is enough, and not to desire more.

Religious imagination about life after death arises from dissatisfaction with the suggestion that we cease to exist at death. Religions consider the materialist theory of human identity to be unsatisfactorily bleak, and so they postulate spiritual ideas that do not have any evidence.

Perhaps you are suggesting that the people you know regard eternal life in heaven as a bonus on top of a completely fulfilling terrestrial existence. That is quite different from how heaven has conventionally been imagined in supernatural fantasy. Traditionally, religion says our real purpose is eternal, conceived as the soul everlasting, and that merely temporal goals are as nothing by comparison.

My own view on this topic is that 'eternal life' does not mean living as an individual for ever, but rather attaining an enlightened perspective where we understand that the important things in life are unchanging, such as the value of relationships and moral ideals.
User avatar
ant

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 5935
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:04 pm
13
Has thanked: 1371 times
Been thanked: 969 times

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

To be satisfied with something means to consider that it is enough, and not to desire more.


That is word quibbling.
The religious people I have encountered in life and interact with almost weekly for that matter, are happy, optimistic, loving, giving people. That to me signifies a joyous appreciation for life, and not mere satisfaction. Perhaps that re clarification was necessary to avoid misunderstanding. So be it.
Religious imagination about life after death arises from dissatisfaction with the suggestion that we cease to exist at death. Religions consider the materialist theory of human identity to be unsatisfactorily bleak, and so they postulate spiritual ideas that do not have any evidence.
You are being overly presumptuous here, Robert.
If anything, I've concluded that the reason people of religion seem more optimistic and pleasant than atheists, who to me seem much more pessimistic, bitter (because this is the only shot at life), and arrogant, is because the very thought of a rewarding afterlife makes them that much more eager to do good deeds here on earth and do unto others what they would have them do to them.

And, of course, the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
Perhaps you are suggesting that the people you know regard eternal life in heaven as a bonus on top of a completely fulfilling terrestrial existence.
I have never heard a religious person claim that heaven is a "bonus" on top of life on earth. I have heard people of faith describe heaven as being a part of the eternity of existence, but never a bonus. If you are not a religious person in the traditional sense, then perhaps speculations about how religious people define religious concepts is difficult at best for you.
My own view on this topic is that 'eternal life' does not mean living as an individual for ever, but rather attaining an enlightened perspective where we understand that the important things in life are unchanging, such as the value of relationships and moral ideals.
That is interesting.

We are talking about perspectivism here:

To you "enlightenment" means understanding the value of relationships and moral ideals in a non-religious context.

To a religious person, brotherly love (relationships) and ideals as setforth by Christ's teachings (mercifulness, humility, sacrifice) enlighten one's spiritual nature and is pleasing in the eye of their god. It is both personally and spiritually rewarding in a Christian context.

There apparently is a difference in belief as to the origin of morals:

An atheist ascribes morals to happenstance that became advantageous to the survival of a species.
So, for instance, the immorality of the crime of rape. To an atheist, who does not need religion to declare what is moral and what is immoral, the immorality of rape is just as arbitrary as the development of 5 instead of 6 toes.
That seems pretty vacuous to me.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6502
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2730 times
Been thanked: 2666 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

ant wrote: religious people I have encountered in life and interact with almost weekly for that matter, are happy, optimistic, loving, giving people. That to me signifies a joyous appreciation for life, and not mere satisfaction... the reason people of religion seem more optimistic and pleasant than atheists, who to me seem much more pessimistic, bitter (because this is the only shot at life), and arrogant, is because the very thought of a rewarding afterlife makes them that much more eager to do good deeds here on earth and do unto others what they would have them do to them.
Hi Ant, it still seems you can't get no satisfaction. Science says there is no reason to believe any claim that lacks strong evidence. Religion says communal desire is more important than evidence. Now, it may be that communal belonging makes people happy, and that focus on evidence makes people sad. But that is hardly evidence that we should simply accept what people around us think and ignore evidence. Your comment about belief in the afterlife having ethically and psychologically positive effects illustrates the power of delusion. It does not provide any evidence for an afterlife. Just because delusion makes people happy is no reason to accept it.

Perhaps the real afterlife is lived by our descendants, and the religious attitude of being among the elect who will go to heaven is a very adaptive delusion. Certainly Weber argued this way in his analysis of how Calvin inspired capitalist wealth accumulation. Belief in an afterlife leads to personal sacrifice, which in turn inspires prudent investment which in turn creates wealth.

I still don't think you get LOS's comment. If we are satisfied that material reality is all there is, then we do not look for anything more. If we are not satisfied that material reality is all there is, we do look for more. Satisfaction is not just an emotional feeling of fullness, it is an intellectual sense of completeness. It is precisely the sense of incompleteness in nature that leads the religious to imagine their supernatural fantasies.
User avatar
Penelope

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
One more post ought to do it.
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am
16
Location: Cheshire, England
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 679 times
Gender:
Great Britain

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

Robert wrote:


Quote:
Perhaps you are suggesting that the people you know regard eternal life in heaven as a bonus on top of a completely fulfilling terrestrial existence.
It is not so long ago that people were taught and believed in the eternal fires of hell - so the afterlife was no bonus in their eyes, in fact mere oblivion would be preferable, I think.
Ant wrote:

I have never heard a religious person claim that heaven is a "bonus" on top of life on earth. I have heard people of faith describe heaven as being a part of the eternity of existence, but never a bonus. If you are not a religious person in the traditional sense, then perhaps speculations about how religious people define religious concepts is difficult at best for you.
I think Robert is a religious person, but is, like myself, trying to fit the square peg of traditional teachings into the round hole of scientific discovery and philosophy. It is a bloody battle for me (a bear of very little brain), and it must be a mammoth battle for a boffin like Robert. But we keep on, keeping on because there is something, so tangible and undeniable lodged in our psyche....I wonder if it is the 'gift' of faith. I often feel like throwing up my hands in disgust and being 'cool' and atheistic like Richard Dawkins - who makes absolute sense to me when I read his work. But then, faith is not of the intellect. Faith is a spiritual discernment (or summink) which is why 'bears of very little brain' can gain it as much as people of great learning and intellect, and vice versa. Didn't St. Paul call the gospel 'foolish'? Anyway, I can't stamp out the flame in me, it just keeps bubbling up......a bubbling flame, mixed metaphor....innit?

It isn't that I am not satisfied with the evidence that life is all there is....it is just that I have this itch.....that I can't reach to scratch.....that there are wheels within wheels....that there is so much more to us than just a brain and a body....and that is why I love great art, music and poetry.....because thereby one can glimpse the extra dimension within us mere mortals. So, whilst I chuck out the dirty water of traditional Christian dogma, I can't chuck out the baby of spiritual insight....it won't go down the hole.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
lady of shallot

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Genuinely Genius
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:22 pm
13
Location: Maine
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 174 times

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

"I've concluded that the reason people of religion seem more optimistic and pleasant than atheists, who to me seem much more pessimistic, bitter (because this is the only shot at life), and arrogant, "

Well the above statement seems to be made out of the same whole cloth we atheists ascribe to religion. Absolutely no basis in fact.

Robert is not quibbling about words. He is using words properly in an attempt to communicate. However I begin to see here the same pattern of inability to do so, that we have known otherwise on this board.
User avatar
Penelope

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
One more post ought to do it.
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am
16
Location: Cheshire, England
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 679 times
Gender:
Great Britain

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

LofS wrote:

Robert is not quibbling about words. He is using words properly in an attempt to communicate. However I begin to see here the same pattern of inability to do so, that we have known otherwise on this board.
But do you not see.....we learn to love and trust one another? Money cannot buy this. We really are communicating. LofS, because you are an elderley lady, like myself, but with a whole different perspective....don't you see....we might, possibly.... perhaps enlighten one another? Writing things down, in words, concentrates the mind......We are too old to want to score points off one another.....so, by that very fact....we are valuable. Well, you are valuable to me at least. LOL
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
lady of shallot

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Genuinely Genius
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:22 pm
13
Location: Maine
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 174 times

Re: How did you stop believing?

Unread post

Penny, My comments were addressed to Ant, not you. What have I missed? Where were we discussing money buying love and trust?

Well I am much older than you Penny, but still would never refer to myself as an "elderly lady" Also while I'm sure there are many things I could learn from you, enlightenment in the topic under discussion could hardly be one of them!

Terrible passport problems just now but I'll be back later to address this more fully.
Post Reply

Return to “Religion & Philosophy”