The Bible's Buried Secrets

[Azrael]

So I think the bigger question is was there a hidden wisdom in the Gospels?[

Yeah its called STUPIDITY.

[stahrwe]

I suppose I asked for it!

That's an excellent experiment Stahrwe, people will be tripping over themselves to give you money to perform it.

The point wasn't funding for the experiment. In fact the experiment was outside of the discussion of establishment science. Let me remind you what you said:

If you're able to do this, I will give up my resistance and believe everything you tell me.

You admit above it is an excellent experiment. I presume that means that you now will believe everything I tell you. Is that correct?*

*let me make it easier for you. I will not tell you things which are outside of the mainstream of theological thought. For example, I would not require you to believe that 1 plus 1 is 7. I will also not require you to forced salvation, that is a decision which cannot be pressed upon someone.

[Azrael]

I suppose I asked for it!

That's an excellent experiment Stahrwe, people will be tripping over themselves to give you money to perform it.

The point wasn't funding for the experiment. In fact the experiment was outside of the discussion of establishment science. Let me remind you what you said:

If you're able to do this, I will give up my resistance and believe everything you tell me.

You admit above it is an excellent experiment. I presume that means that you now will believe everything I tell you. Is that correct?*

*let me make it easier for you. I will not tell you things which are outside of the mainstream of theological thought. For example, I would not require you to believe that 1 plus 1 is 7. I will also not require you to forced salvation, that is a decision which cannot be pressed upon someone.

Thats odd your asking us to accept mythology as fact.

[Frank 013]

Stahrwe
I submitted an experiment in accordance with the parameters provided by Interbane. Let's see if he will live up to his end of the bargain.

Actually that experiment has already been performed but not exactly as you describe it… we do (through the science of archeology) have a picture of what the earth looked like around 6,000-10,000 years ago.

Of course we can also look back much farther than that because we see scaring from asteroids and evidence of other stellar bodies imbedded in the petrified sediment of the earth’s crust… we have fossils, bones, prehistoric insects caught in amber, even tools of prehistoric man… many are older than your claim of creation… and they would have to be because fossilization does not happen overnight.

So unless you can show that the earth was created mature (which I know you are claiming) complete with the stellar scaring (in various stages of repair sometimes tens of thousands of years in the process) and made with pre-fossilized remains… or if you can show that fossilization happens quickly under natural conditions (which I know you can’t) or that plate tectonics was faster in history... or that sediment hardens into stone much faster that visibly witnessed... than the earth must be old… very old… much older than the biblical account.

Let me put this in perspective for you… for god to have created the earth as it is… in its current form of disfigurement… we should also expect Adam to have been created with an already healed broken arm… acne scarring… possibly receding hairline… things of that nature… of course nothing like this is mentioned… so there is no correlation… unless you can answer why one was made perfectly healthy and the other all F-ed up?

I for one say that Interbane is off the hook, we already have that picture.

Later

[stahrwe]

MICHAEL COOGAN: We don't know exactly what it means and we don't know how it was pronounced, but it seems to have been the personal name of the God of Israel, so his title, in a sense, was "God," and his name was these four letters, which in English is "YHWH," which we think were probably pronounced something like Yahweh.

NARRATOR: But Yahweh only appears in the Hebrew Bible. His name is nowhere to be found in Canaanite texts or stories. So where do the Israelites find their God?

NARRATOR: The search for the origins of Yahweh leads scholars back to ancient Egypt. Here in the royal city of Karnak, for over a thousand years, Pharaohs celebrated their power with statues, obelisks and carved murals on temple walls.

DONALD REDFORD: Here on the north wall of Karnak, we have scenes depicting the victories and battles of Seti the First, the father of Ramesses the Great.
Seti, here, commemorates one of his greatest victories over the Shasu.

NARRATOR: The Shasu were a people who lived in the deserts of southern Canaan, now Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia, around the same time as the Israelites emerged.
Egyptian texts say one of the places where the Shasu lived is called "Y.H.W.," probably pronounced Yahu, likely the name of their patron god. That name Yahu is strangely similar to Yahweh, the name of the Israelite god.

In the Bible, the place where the Shasu lived is referred to as Midian. It is here, before the Exodus, the Bible tells us, Moses first encounters Yahweh, in the form of a burning bush.
VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible "Revised Standard Version," Exodus 3:5 and 15): Come no closer! Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. God also said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, YHWH the God of your ancestors... has sent me to you: This is My name forever, and this My title for all generations."

MICHAEL COOGAN: So we have, in Egyptian sources, something that appears to be a name like Yahweh in the vicinity of Midian. Here is Moses in Midian, and there a deity appears to him and reveals his name to Moses as Yahweh.

NARRATOR: These tantalizing connections are leading biblical scholars to re-examine the Exodus story. While there is no evidence to support a mass migration, some now believe that a small group did escape from Egypt; however, they were not Israelites but, rather, Canaanite slaves. On their journey back to Canaan they pass through Midian, where they are inspired by stories of the Shasu's god, Yahu.

Nova SHOW, TBBS, pages 11-12

The proposed link between the Israelites and the Shasu may, however, be undermined by the fact that in the Merneptah reliefs, the group later known as the Israelites are not described or depicted as Shasu. Some scholars like Frank J. Yurco and Michael G. Hasel identify the Shasu in Merneptah's Karnak reliefs as a separate entity from Israel since they wear different clothing, hairstyles, and are determined differently by Egyptian scribes.[7] Moreover, Israel is determined as a people, or socioethnic group. The most frequent designation for the "foes of Shasu" is the hill-country determinative.[8] Thus they are differentiated from the Canaanites, who are defending the fortified cities of Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yenoam.[9] At the same time, the hill-country determinative is not always used for Shasu, as is the case in the "Shasu of Yhw" name rings from Soleb and Amarah-West.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu

[Dawn]

Of course we can also look back much farther than that because we see scaring from asteroids and evidence of other stellar bodies imbedded in the petrified sediment of the earth’s crust… we have fossils, bones, prehistoric insects caught in amber, even tools of prehistoric man… many are older than your claim of creation… and they would have to be because fossilization does not happen overnight.

Careful Frank about the fossilization claim:

The fact that something is fossilized does not mean that it is millions of years old. In fact, scientists know that fossilization can take place rather rapidly under the right conditions; quick burial, the right amounts of water, and suitable minerals.

Conditions for fossilization were ideal during the Flood. Researchers have discovered that bones, wood and other objects can fossilize in relatively short periods of time (e.g., 5 to100 years), if the conditions are right. Fossilization does not take millions, or even thousands, of years.

All is not as certain as you asssume. Uncertainty might be a good stance about now...

[stahrwe]

Thats odd your asking us to accept mythology as fact.

Your avatar seems appropriate. Actually, I am not asking 'you' to do anything. Interbane agreed to believe everything I tell him so your comment is inappropriate.

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe
I submitted an experiment in accordance with the parameters provided by Interbane. Let's see if he will live up to his end of the bargain.

Actually that experiment has already been performed but not exactly as you describe it… we do (through the science of archeology) have a picture of what the earth looked like around 6,000-10,000 years ago.

If it wasn't performed the way I described then it hasn't been performed has it? As an aside, I think you are referencing the wrong science. I don't think archeology is the branch you want but it doesn't matter since my experiment was not to look at current materials but to go back in time. Seems like you are weaseling to me.

Of course we can also look back much farther than that because we see scaring from asteroids and evidence of other stellar bodies imbedded in the petrified sediment of the earth’s crust… we have fossils, bones, prehistoric insects caught in amber, even tools of prehistoric man… many are older than your claim of creation… and they would have to be because fossilization does not happen overnight.

Having attempted to create the diversion Frank013 now proceeds under the assumption that he has been successful and introduces even more irrelevant points.

What does fossilization have to do my experiment? I call weasel again.

So unless you can show that the earth was created mature (which I know you are claiming) complete with the stellar scaring (in various stages of repair sometimes tens of thousands of years in the process) and made with pre-fossilized remains… or if you can show that fossilization happens quickly under natural conditions (which I know you can’t) or that plate tectonics was faster in history... or that sediment hardens into stone much faster that visibly witnessed... than the earth must be old… very old… much older than the biblical account.

Duh, my experiment is to show that the earth was created mature. Now, Interbane's requirement specifically stated that I did not have to perform the experiment. Now, you are demanding that I perform my experiment. Excuse me, but the arrangement between Interbane and I is none of your business. You are trying to weasel and divert by changing the requriements so let me repeat them as originally presented:

I challenge you to think up an experiment that would support creation that hasn't already been performed. If you're able to do this, I will give up my resistance and believe everything you tell me. Just come up with an experiment(be creative!) that tests the truthfulness of the biblical creation account. It must be a novel experiment that hasn't already been performed and peer reviewed. You don't need to perform this experiment, all you have to do is design it, think it up.

Let me put this in perspective for you… for god to have created the earth as it is… in its current form of disfigurement… we should also expect Adam to have been created with an already healed broken arm… acne scarring… possibly receding hairline… things of that nature… of course nothing like this is mentioned… so there is no correlation… unless you can answer why one was made perfectly healthy and the other all F-ed up?

Weaseling still. I am calling you out. You claim to have read the Bible but to make the statment you did above demonstrates complete, and utter ignorance of the Bible.

But you still are weaseling.

I for one say that Interbane is off the hook, we already have that picture.

Later

But this isn't an election, it is a contract is between Interbane and stahrwe. Frank013 is not a party to that contract. You have no more say in it than you would to divorce me and my wife.

[stahrwe]

With respect to the agreement between Interbane and stahrwe based on the challenge he made to me, I say to Interbane, in the words of Barry from Dinner for Schmucks, "I release you."

UPDATE
Based on Interbane's subsequent post @ 10:59am today, I retract this release and forfeit all respect for him.

[Frank 013]

Stahrwe
If it wasn't performed the way I described then it hasn't been performed has it? As an aside, I think you are referencing the wrong science. I don't think archeology is the branch you want but it doesn't matter since my experiment was not to look at current materials but to go back in time. Seems like you are weaseling to me.

Just giving my opinion dude, no reason to get all uppity. But you did ask for something we already have a good picture of… your experiment is worthless in that situation.

Stahrwe
What does fossilization have to do my experiment? I call weasel again.

I’m just explaining why your proposed experiment is worthless... sorry if your feelings got hurt.

Stahrwe
Now, you are demanding that I perform my experiment.

No, I am telling you why your experiment need not be preformed.

Stahrwe
Excuse me, but the arrangement between Interbane and I is none of your business.

You are correct but I just wanted to point out that you (as a good Christian boy) have violated the spirit of the proposal… you are taking advantage of Interbane’s imperfect wording of the question and reversing his sarcastic response

“Interbane: That's an excellent experiment Stahrwe, people will be tripping over themselves to give you money to perform it.”

Now you are flaunting victory because you think you have been clever, but it’s childish and even a little iniquitous to twist words and meanings around like that.

Stahrwe
Weaseling still. I am calling you out. You claim to have read the Bible but to make the statment you did above demonstrates complete, and utter ignorance of the Bible.

But you still are weaseling.

My understanding of the bible comes from the bible itself not 2000 plus years of learned reinterpretation. However I will say this, I am ignorant of how you understand these passages… and when you try to explain yourself you end up piling one rationalization on top of another making you claims wildly impossible and that is being kind.

Stahrwe
But this isn't an election, it is a contract is between Interbane and stahrwe. Frank013 is not a party to that contract. You have no more say in it than you would to divorce me and my wife.

neither is it a court of law... Last time I checked I still had the right to voice my opinion… sorry you take such offense.

Later