Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

[Gnostic Bishop]

I think what Islam fears is not the West but Western secular morals and secular law.

Certainly that is the party line. I have heard several educated Muslims tell me that divorce and pornography are the natural result of Western morals and "tolerance". They may have a point.

"Hot tub culture" sounds alluring on the face of it, but if I ask myself whether I would want a daughter to identify with it, or for that matter a son, I have to admit the answer is no.

On the other hand, as we know, restricting divorce ends up meaning subjugating women, in most cases, and if you make people specify their choice about access to porn, as Britain did, the vast majority opt in.

So there are several important issues raised about compulsion and liberty, but I think it is sheer arrogance to argue that the only acceptable system is the current Western one.

The battle is an ideological one and we have yet to find a better ideology than democracy and capitalism with a bit of social welfare thrown in.

The Western systems are the accepted best and they are not compatible with Sharia and cutting off limbs, having a rape law or stoning gays.

As to our hot tub cultures, have a holiday for a week at any resort and you will lose the notion of what a hot tub culture is. It is not what most think it is.

Regards
DL

[Harry Marks]

The battle is an ideological one and we have yet to find a better ideology than democracy and capitalism with a bit of social welfare thrown in.

Well, until 50 years ago our democracy sliced issues of freedom and morality quite differently from how it does today, and I can easily imagine democracy and capitalism with nice uptight morals, school uniforms and porn deprived of any profit. For that matter, I don't think we really know yet whether the sexual revolution gives a better society, although I think a pretty good case can be made that it is better for the richest 60 percent of society.
I think we can still find grounds for humility, without looking particularly far.

The Western systems are the accepted best and they are not compatible with Sharia and cutting off limbs, having a rape law or stoning gays.

By "having a rape law" I assume you do not mean "having a law against rape."
You are presenting a false dichotomy. My Muslim friends are aghast at the idea of stoning anyone, or at the idea of inflexible Sharia. You seem to think Islam has to be Wahhabbist, which sounds to me like thinking that Christianity must be either Calvinist or 19th Century Roman Catholic (with a possible third option of Bob Jones University). That kind of straw man argumentation from the intelligent is not likely to generate confidence that there can be productive dialogue between cultures.

As to our hot tub cultures, have a holiday for a week at any resort and you will lose the notion of what a hot tub culture is. It is not what most think it is.

I'll take your word for it. I hope you were not too disappointed.

[Gnostic Bishop]

My low expectations were met.

As to the rape law. I was speaking of a law that allows the rape of wives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2RZntomfFI

Good of you not to try to say that Sharia and democracy are compatible or can work together without ignoring much of Sharia law as immoral law.

Regards
DL

[Harry Marks]

Good of you not to try to say that Sharia and democracy are compatible or can work together without ignoring much of Sharia law as immoral law.

Thanks for clarifying about the other. When Rowan Williams indicated the possibility of some use of sharia on a private basis, he was pretty clear that it had to be acceptable under the broad scope of British law. Where secular law is not specified, or can be interpreted to give some leeway, there is nothing wrong with letting people use social custom to decide. We are not going to step into Jewish weddings and tell people that stepping on a glass is too dangerous to allow.

What got him in trouble was giving any respect at all to the principle of sharia. But he knows very well that there is a broad range of interpretation within Christianity, as there is in Islam, and I respect him for leaving the door open.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Good of you not to try to say that Sharia and democracy are compatible or can work together without ignoring much of Sharia law as immoral law.

Thanks for clarifying about the other. When Rowan Williams indicated the possibility of some use of sharia on a private basis, he was pretty clear that it had to be acceptable under the broad scope of British law. Where secular law is not specified, or can be interpreted to give some leeway, there is nothing wrong with letting people use social custom to decide. We are not going to step into Jewish weddings and tell people that stepping on a glass is too dangerous to allow.

What got him in trouble was giving any respect at all to the principle of sharia. But he knows very well that there is a broad range of interpretation within Christianity, as there is in Islam, and I respect him for leaving the door open.

It is not a huge leap in logic to know that there would be some good things in any theology. Even Islam's.

All who ask for a look and comparison of theologies will invariably be labelled by those who do not like those who do not use political correctness to insult and just use the truth and let truth insult.

Mr. Abbot, a former Australian PM was labelled with a few pejorative labels for some of his truths that insulted some. Even when he was just quoting a Muslim.

"We've got to work closely with live-and-let-live Muslims because there needs to be, as president [Abdel Fattah] Al-Sisi of Egypt has said, a religious revolution inside Islam," Mr Abbott said.

"All of those things that Islam has never had — a reformation, an enlightenment, a well-developed concept of the separation of church and state — that needs to happen."

Mr Abbott's time as prime minister was marked by his strong stance against the actions of Islamic State (IS, also known as ISIL and ISIS) and other terrorist organisations like Boko Haram.

"Cultures are not all equal. We should be ready to proclaim the clear superiority of our culture to one that justifies killing people in the name of God," Mr Abbott wrote in the column.

I am all for comparing ideologies as I believe in seeking the best rules and laws to live by.

There is no supernatural God and I define the word God as the best set of rules and laws to live life by.

Idol worshipers like Christians and Muslims are the ones causing all the trouble. They no longer seek God the way Jesus said we should.

Regards
DL

[LanDroid]

Here's a conversation on The Daily Show that pretty well stomps on the premise of this thread. You can fast forward to 4 minutes and listen 'til the 6 minute mark.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ju44t3/th ... -terrorism
Trevor Noah and Dalia Mogahed, Director of Research at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Here's a conversation on The Daily Show that pretty well stomps on the premise of this thread. You can fast forward to 4 minutes and listen 'til the 6 minute mark.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ju44t3/th ... -terrorism
Trevor Noah and Dalia Mogahed, Director of Research at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding.

Apologies.

I cannot get this link to work so if you want me to know what is said, you will have to write it.

Regards
DL