Creationism vs. Evolution - A Culture Divided

[stahrwe]

What the bible says doesn't count as proof. The bible is a book written by men, just like any other book. If it refers us to the proof, then it should stand on it's own merits outside of what the bible says. Here's a hint, there is not only no proof of a god, but not even any evidence.

Star; True, but the writer's were inspired by the Holy Spirit so that the Bible is inerrant, and infallable.

[stahrwe]

Star: "The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC."

And never rewritten or altered?


Stahrwe answer: The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls provided an opportuity to check the accuracy of the scriptures. The copy of Isaih did not vary from the one modern translations had been based on. What you might not realize is that in most cases the prophets of the OT were brining messages from God that were highly critical of the behavior of the people, ususally the people in power. The prophets were frequently punished for the messages (see esp. Jeremiah) but the books were presereved because they were God's Word.

[Interbane]

Star: "<5,000 years"

Dinosaurs? Light from distant stars?

Star: "No, I know that it does. Have experienced answers."

Yet no reliable study on prayer has ever shown it to work. It's not knowledge as you claim, but belief. What you have experienced is subjective validation, nothing more.

Star: "No" (belief in unicorns)

Why not? There's as much evidence for unicorns as there is for a god.

Star: "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of salvation for anyone who believes."

Except that since there is no salvation, all we are left with is people like yourself who believe in a man made fairy tale. Does it depress you to realize that such belief will fade away just as belief in Zeus has?

Star: "True, but the writer's were inspired by the Holy Spirit so that the Bible is inerrant, and infallable."

Boy, they've got you fooled!

[Robert Tulip]

Wow, a real life honest to goodness young earth creationist! In my sheltered life I thought such lying idiots were ashamed to show their face in public, let alone engage in real discussion. Really, I think Stahrwe is a fake. Surely no one actually believes that stuff any more? Starhwe presents an interesting psychological experiment to see how long this thread can last and how much rope he will take. Maybe he will even learn how to use quotes so that he stops attributing his own ideas to others.

Starhwe, young earth creationism is an evil doctrine. If you believe the earth is created by God you should venerate the process whereby the earth came into being, including the evolution of life, as discovered by modern science. Holding to obsolete pre-modern doctrines may seem a way to salvage your moral theory, but in fact the reverse is the case. YECism destroys morality by conflicting with all evidence and reason. By denying that the earth is precious, and justifying the unbiblical rapture theology which sees salvation in terms of escape from our planet, Young Earth Creationism makes it okay for humans to prepare to destroy the earth by CO2 emissions or nuclear weapons. YECism is the most blinkered and stupid ideology on our planet.

On the existence of Zeus, people may wish to look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyaus_Pita to see that Zeus is actually exactly the same as Jehovah. Both derive etymologically from the Indian Dyaus Pita, the sky father of the Vedic Pantheon. Greek Zeus Patera = Roman Ju Piter = Christian Deus Pater. None are entities, but rather human efforts to explain the meaning of life.

On the existence of Christ, my view is that the gospels contain an underlying coherent worldview which suggests the ideas originated with a single person of great genius. It is highly improbable that this individual managed to be unknown to all contemporary historians, but possible. The passion narrative is obviously mythical, reflecting Jewish effort to come to terms with the trauma of the destruction of the temple in 70AD. No one is crucified through their hands and feet as they will fall off the cross. You have to hammer the nails between the arm and leg bones. This is just one small detail of how the story of the cross is invented by Christians as a means of ideological warfare against the Roman Empire.

A pile of other stories reflect the efforts of the Alexandrian priesthood to formulate a believable narrative able to confront the domination of Rome. For example the disciples are rebadged old Gods - Thomas is the Babylonian Tammuz, Matthew is the Egyptian Ma'at, Peter is Ptah, John is from Elijah and Oannes, and Jesus himself combines attributes of Krishna and Horus.

Suggesting the bible is literal history is a pure insult to all concerned.

[Chris OConnor]

My jaw just dropped when I read Stahrwe say that he believes the Earth to be less than 5,000 years old.

http://www.kent-hovind.com/matson/proofs.htm

[Chris OConnor]

After some quick research I see that Stahrwe isn't trolling and actually believes this stuff. I'm not sharing anything else about him as I don't know what he wants public, but he is the real deal and definitely not trolling.

[geo]

Wow, a real life honest to goodness young earth creationist! In my sheltered life I thought such lying idiots were ashamed to show their face in public, let alone engage in real discussion. Really, I think Stahrwe is a fake. Surely no one actually believes that stuff any more?

Robert, America is pretty 'out there' when it comes to religion. I thought Stahrwe was putting us on at first too, but he's actually representative of almost half of Americans. The Gallup poll done in 2006 shows that 46% of Americans believed that God created humans in the present form less than 10,000 years ago.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/23200/almost ... volve.aspx

The newer poll doesn't specifically ask about the age of the earth, but focuses mostly on belief in evolution and if people associate Charles Darwin's name with evolution.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/Darwi ... ution.aspx

An excerpt . . .

February 11, 2009

On Darwin’s Birthday, Only 4 in 10 Believe in Evolution

Belief drops to 24% among frequent church attenders

by Frank Newport
PRINCETON, NJ -- On the eve of the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, a new Gallup Poll shows that only 39% of Americans say they "believe in the theory of evolution," while a quarter say they do not believe in the theory, and another 36% don't have an opinion either way. These attitudes are strongly related to education and, to an even greater degree, religiosity.

There is a strong relationship between education and belief in Darwin's theory, as might be expected, ranging from 21% of those with high-school educations or less to 74% of those with postgraduate degrees. . . .



edit note: My statement that Stahrwe is representative of half of Americans is not quite right. The 2006 Gallup poll says only that 46% of Americans believe that God created humans in the present form less than 10,000 years ago. That's not quite the same as believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

[stahrwe]

After some quick research I see that Stahrwe isn't trolling and actually believes this stuff. I'm not sharing anything else about him as I don't know what he wants public, but he is the real deal and definitely not trolling.

What is trolling?

A few thoughts, or, I guess in my case, you folks might say they are randomly accumulated synaptic responses.

I am inexperienced in forums, so if any of you wish to provide a few pointers that would be beneficial that's fine. It is never my intention to be confusing the struction of my response though I may pose a puzzle here or there.

About me:
I am 54 years old. I became a Christian when I was 6. My family jumped from church to church until I was a sophomore in HS when I had enough, quit going to church and became an antagonist to Christianity. To my regret I was rude to people when challenging their faith even ridiculing a girl in one of my classes for believing that Mary was a virgin. Even truth is not a license to be ill mannered. I didn't care about persuading her that she was wrong, I only wanted to humiliate her and others like her.

I continued through university starting as a physics major with the goal of becoming an astronomer, but coming from Brevard County Florida and seeing what the ending of the Apollo program did for science and engineer careers I switched majors to business. Really, it had nothing to do with Dr. S. B. Tricky (really his name we had fun with the initials) and the fact that I squeaked by with a C in his class on experimental physics.

I got a job in Titusville, Florida, right across the river from the Kennedy Space Center and I met a girl. Her father had been a preacher in Panama Canal Zone for 30+ years. While there he personally arranged for and participated in laying pipe to bring fresh water from the mainland to one of the islands the San Blas indialns lived on so the women would not have to paddle to the mainland twice a day for freshwater. He helped to raise funds for and build a hospital. He coordinated bring doctors to the San Blas several times each year, especially plastic surgeons to repair cleft pallets which were common due to inbreeding. When I met him he was retired but running a ministry he started. The ministry sent him each year to what were then the Communist Eastern European countries. He would take medicine, Bibles, arrange for shoes and peoples discarded eyeglasses to be disributed to the people. He also went each year to India where he taught in schools, again took medicine and eyeglasses to the people. In fact that is where he finally caught the disease which would eventually lead to his death. He didn't stay in the big cities but went to small ones which were basically sewers. His last trip he caught something really nasty. BTW, he used to go with as many suitcases as he could carry and come back with just the clothes on his back. He gave away everything else.

I'll post more later including my defense of a young earth but I have to go to church now.

[Interbane]

Star: "A few thoughts, or, I guess in my case, you folks might say they are randomly accumulated synaptic responses."

Huh? We might be critical thinkers, but we're not weird!!

[Chris OConnor]

Trolling takes on many forms, but in this situation it is natural to assume you might be pretending to believe our planet is less than 5,000 years old just to stir things up and get people wound up.

Pretending to take a nonsense position is a form of trolling. Few educated people would ever argue that our planet is anything but billions of years old. I'm sorry for having to say this to you, but your opinion is so genuinely nutty that some of us assumed you were joking or just trying to cause controversy.

Now that I see you're serious I am not even sure how to progress. The evidence for the age of the universe and our solar system and planets is so overwhelming that your position makes you look like you're either joking or completely uneducated in the sciences.

This deserves a brand new thread so I am going to create one. Please take the discussion of the age of the universe and our planet to the new thread....just to keep things organized.