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Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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Doulos
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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Hello Tat,

A pleasure to meet you as well. I'm afraid my reply will have to be very brief, as I'm just preparing to run out of the house. My daughters have multiple birthday parties today. It is hard being the father of young socialites. 8)

I think the historical reality of a Jewish rabbi and 'miracle worker' named Jesus, whose followers founded the religion we know as Christianity is as reliable as we can get for a 1st c. religious teacher from an obscure province of the Roman empire. It's actually surprising that we have as many sources for him as we do.

Cheers!
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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^If it's all to do with one particular person mind you. Here's a link to a debate between one of Ehrmans fans arguing for Jesus as an obscure failed doomsday prophet verses Jesus as a possible amalgamation of popular prophet types rolled into one:

http://www.debate.org/debates/The-histo ... -leader/2/
= Conclusion ==

I have proven in this debate that the gospel authors were willing to lie, borrow, and cheat to gain followers for Christianity. My opponent never disproves the Jewish claims about Jesus being a combination of false messiahs. Even if you believe the gospels, I have provided copious textual evidence that John the Baptist, not Jesus, was the apocalyptic ascetic (and two-thirds of Jesus scholars agree with my interpretation). And during this time period, asceticism and apocalypticism were completely intertwined (as seen by the Essenes). If Jesus was not an ascetic, he was not apocalyptic, and I've clearly won that he was not ascetic. For all these reasons, I urge a Con vote.
That pretty much took out Ehrman's failed doomsday apocalyptic Jesus. Apostate Abe dropped a link to this debate complaining about the loss on a thread about Ehrman's book before it was released. Can we know that Jesus of Nazareth did exist based on the sources we have? No, not hardly:

Now can someone have faith in all of this anyways? Of course. But I'd stress that this is really a faith based issue more than anything else and it's puzzling why theologians are fighting so hard to make it seem absolute and certain in a historical sciences type of sense. For some reason faith alone doesn't suffice for these guys. So they leave themselves open to the kind of scrutiny that they're now receiving from hardcore analytical considerations.....
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DWill

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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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Doulos wrote:
My point didn't have to do with correct historical facts. Whatever the facts were, they don't matter when we're looking at the effect of a book. If "Jews" was not a blanket term for a guilty party in the supposed historical context, it certainly became that within a relatively short time and remained so for centuries. How else can the Catholic Church's own hostile stance towards Jews be explained? Another point I was making is that the enmity of Christians toward Jews is an aspect of the Gospel stories that couldn't have been made up. As I understand them, mythicists deny any historical basis in the Gospels.
Thanks for the clarification Dwill,

My concern was merely that we don't provide fodder for those who would seek to perpetuate hatred of the Jews on a false Biblical basis. People will always have bias and hate, I would just prefer they don't misconstrue evidence to justify their hate :mrgreen:
Aren't you letting the Book off the hook a little too easily? It's really more than misinterpretation by untold millions of people. Why would so many have "misinterpreted" the Gospels? Isn't it because they find license for their views right in the Gospels? Mel Gibson was a very late-comer in this. Don't we clearly see in those books the outlines of an already-present internecine feud between two main religious groups? The lack of care the writers show in distinguishing certain "bad" Jews from the general group is symptomatic of the polarization that had taken place. It was a distinction they didn't care about making. A demonization was in the works. Apologetics fails when it refuses to see that in the Gospels and in Acts we have examples of the dark side of religion, where one group is being made a lesser kind of human being, which inevitably leads to that group's abuse at the hands of the victor group. Which is exactly what happened to the Jews. Christianity needs to make a full confession of this, but to do so would entail admission that the Book is susceptible to corruption, as any book is.
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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take a typical bible story then apply this approach

mythicist/symbolic or literal/historical

k... heres a story

....6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,.....

....right ..six waterpots ...huge clay vessels ...hmmmm clay ..he drew me out of the miry clay, dust to dust, of the earth earthly, god the potter etc etc all bible language for first adam

vessel, vessels for this, vessels for that, ye are vessels fitted for masters use etc etc bible language for man.

right clay vessels bible code for earthly man

cut to chase.... making wine from water in clay vessels is metaphor for higher consciousness transforming mere awareness to a higher state or something along those lines

right... literal interpretation

ancient jew does magic trick at party

ok

i'm going with the mythicists on this one
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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when you step back from all the posturing and name calling (not that i dont enjoy that game too) and actually look at a bible text through the lens of some basic knowledge of symbolism then it's blinkin' obvious..

however if you are proud and cannot admit you are ignorant and foolishly have taken as literal something which is obviously allegory then you are in trouble.. your own faulty mindset refuses to allow you to see what is plain as the nose on your face.

when i realised i had made that colossal mistake i laughed and thought "well bust my britches and call me shorty" "what kind of a first class dickhead have i made of myself" and then began to enjoy decoding all the stories of one of the greatest bits of symbolist literature ever assembled, awesome stuff.

some people can turn on a dime others prefer just to continue pretending they are not wrong rather than face the unbelievable truth that billions were dumb enough to take as history what is obviously metaphor.

literalism is recalcitrant as rock, mythicism is fluid

a rut is just a grave open at both ends
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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DWill wrote:Aren't you letting the Book off the hook a little too easily? It's really more than misinterpretation by untold millions of people. Why would so many have "misinterpreted" the Gospels? Isn't it because they find license for their views right in the Gospels?
I'm afraid I can't say with certainty why so many might have misinterpreted the message in regards to Judaism, having not studied the issue very closely.

My guess would be that it was due to ingrained prejudice against the Jews combined with control of Biblical interpretation by a 'priesthood.' Allow me to explain.

1) The New Testament letters and gospels were written almost entirely in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Roman Empire.

2) There was definitely not any general anti-Jewish agenda in the early church. One of the early heresies was by Marcion who was very anti-Jewish. The collection of the New Testament was actually a reaction against Marcion's anti-Jewish teaching.

3) Eventually a Latin edition of the Bible was written (the Vulgate). The purpose of this was to make the Bible accessible to the Western Roman Empire which was becoming steadily more dominated by Latin.

4) As Latin in turn receded from usage, it became the preserve of a priestly class to interpret the Latin text to a populace which no longer understood it.

My assumption is that by concentrating interpretation in a small elite class (which was in turn under the Pope in Rome), this allowed anti-Jewish teaching to spread and become accepted as a 'biblical' teaching.

This is just a guess though, and I'll add that to my list of topics to research.
Mel Gibson was a very late-comer in this. Don't we clearly see in those books the outlines of an already-present internecine feud between two main religious groups? The lack of care the writers show in distinguishing certain "bad" Jews from the general group is symptomatic of the polarization that had taken place. It was a distinction they didn't care about making. A demonization was in the works. Apologetics fails when it refuses to see that in the Gospels and in Acts we have examples of the dark side of religion, where one group is being made a lesser kind of human being, which inevitably leads to that group's abuse at the hands of the victor group. Which is exactly what happened to the Jews. Christianity needs to make a full confession of this, but to do so would entail admission that the Book is susceptible to corruption, as any book is.
Your issue here seems to be with Mel Gibson (and possibly the Roman Catholic church since my understanding is that Mel based his film upon Catholic teachings). If he ever returns my calls, I'll mention that you wanted to talk to him. :D
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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youkrst wrote:take a typical bible story then apply this approach

mythicist/symbolic or literal/historical

k... heres a story

....6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,.....

....right ..six waterpots ...huge clay vessels ...hmmmm clay ..he drew me out of the miry clay, dust to dust, of the earth earthly, god the potter etc etc all bible language for first adam

vessel, vessels for this, vessels for that, ye are vessels fitted for masters use etc etc bible language for man.

right clay vessels bible code for earthly man

cut to chase.... making wine from water in clay vessels is metaphor for higher consciousness transforming mere awareness to a higher state or something along those lines

right... literal interpretation

ancient jew does magic trick at party

ok

i'm going with the mythicists on this one
Ok... let's take the rest of the passage and continue your experiment. :)

(I'll use the ESV translation though as it's in modern English)

John 2:10 ...and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

<ok, ummm so the "higher consciousness transforming mere awareness to a higher state" was drunk freely? And it was good "higher consciousness"? This "higher consciousness" caused the disciples to believe in him... because he'd made a good symbolic metaphor about the first Adam and man??? Wow. That must have been SOME symbolic metaphor. Maybe it'll make sense if I apply youkrst's method to the passages that came BEFORE...>

John 2:1On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. 3When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

<Ok, so they ran out of "higher consciousness" at this wedding, and Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more "higher consciousness!" Wait!!! It's all making sense!!! Oh wait... no it's not...>

It makes a lot of sense though if they were just talking about water being turned into wine. :mrgreen:
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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A key theme in this debate is the ancient status of what DM Murdock has called "astrolatry". Aster is Greek for star, while latreia is Greek for worship. The fact is that ancient religions were suffused with worship of stars, from the oldest time through to the Roman imperial cult of Sol Invictus, the invincible sun. At this final high point, the sun was worshipped as the source of light and life, and the cult of the sun became the unifying belief system and symbol of stability of the Empire, celebrated at the birth of the sun on 25 December when the sun starts its long annual trek south to summer.

For some reason this natural symbol became unacceptable as a basis for universal religion. The Judeo-Christian idea that man is made in the image of God came to have a much stronger moral purchase, perhaps as a way of emphasising the value of compassion and shared belief, and the need for respect for human rights. Worshipping the pitiless sun lacked the emotional power of worship of the point of connection between divinity and humanity, incarnated in history as Jesus Christ, whose name means Anointed Saviour.

So Christianity steadily supplanted the cult of Sol Invictus. But, and this is a key point, Christianity had evolved in a context where pagan worship of natural reality was pervasive. The power of Christianity rested in its capacity to deliver the same spiritual and political needs that had been supplied by natural religion, while arguing that these needs were actually supported by a wholly transcendent God who had made man in his image, with Christ as the eternal exemplar of human divinity. The steadily growing mood of anthropocentrism, the sense of human superiority over nature, was produced by the growth of civilization and its alienation from nature. The human-centred paradigm was served by the Christian idea that spirit transcends nature.

Orwell's 1984 is a classic analysis of how history is written by the victors. Capacity to change perceptions of the past is a key to present legitimacy. Christianity is the biggest ever example of concerted effort to change the past. Today (May 27) is Pentecost, when Acts 2 tells us that believers 'breathe together' with God. This sense of common breath, forming the basis of our word conspiracy, led the church to accept claims that supported strong provenance for its doctrine of the separation of nature and spirit, unified only in Christ, and to reject teachings which saw spirit as originally grounded in nature.

Tat Tvam Asi speaks above of a paradigm shift. This sense of a reunion of nature and spirit is key to this shift, a reconciliation which is the basis of old ideas such as atonement, redemption and salvation. The tragedy and danger of current supernatural delusion is its effort to see salvation as involving a separation of spirit from nature, rather than their union.

I discussed how these themes play out in Erhman's book at a thread analysing his critique of Murdock and of Freke and Gandy.

I get criticised for these arguments, but as I say in my linked review of Ehrman, these criticisms come from a denialist agenda regarding the natural origins of Christianity. Assessing this material from a rigorous scientific perspective leads to observation of abundant cosmic imagery within the Bible, and artful efforts to conceal the meaning of these images. This makes it obvious there was intense cultural conflict over the nature of early Christianity.

One of the most distinguished of contemporary theologians, Professor Elaine Pagels of Princeton University, argues there was a clash in the early church between initiates and the broader group of believers, which the broader group won by force of numbers. It is difficult now to reconstruct the nature of the initiate beliefs, because of the comprehensive efforts to suppress and destroy all evidence of Christianity's real origins. But the initiates were too clever, and they managed to conceal their ideas within the Jesus story, hidden as miracles and parables whose real meaning points to the one reality of the natural universe.

This is a way of thinking that would be highly controversial if it actually got debated, but it is so distant from the dominant patterns of supernatural Christian faith that such analysis simply gets ignored. Bart Ehrman has done us a big favour by shifting the ground to debate, in the futile view that his worn out claims justifying the ancient power grab of the ignorant over the enlightened will be justified. The more these questions face public scrutiny, the more the defenders of the Historical Jesus will be revealed as entirely lacking in intellectual rigor, honesty and scholarship.
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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Doulos, it's a metaphor

your approach is like saying right let's get a cat, ok we'll skin it one way, now get another cat and we'll skin it a different way... see it makes perfect sense if we're taking about skinning cats.

but

IT'S A METAPHOR

noah and the ark
jonah in the whale
christ in the tomb
crucified on a cross/tree
risen out from among the dead
water into wine

all metaphors

most christians see some of the symbolism but stop short seeing the saviour himself as a symbolic reference to something within themselves, hence in the story christ asks...

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Doulos? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

christ, judas, peter john etc etc all literary representations of aspects of man.

within

where is the kingdom... bible says within (it's a metaphor)
where is christ... bible says christ in you (it's a metaphor)

no it's literal... really !?!?!?!?!?

ie: literalism, the poison of the age. the letter kills comprehension.

read the story of water into wine and it's a great metaphor with tremendous personal applications.

3rd day, 6 vessels, marriage (bride), (ring any bells?)

read it literally and it's a story about a dude being hassled by his mum to do a magic trick so a bunch of jews can get legless.

just like "there's more than one way to skin a cat" it's a great metaphor but read it literally and it's cat butchery.

the problem is most of us aren't the sharpest tools in the shed and can't understand the bible isn't history, it's metaphor allegory and symbolism.

except for this bit of course, it's literal

52 Graves opened, and many of God’s people were raised to life. 53 Then after Jesus had risen to life, they came out of their graves and went into the holy city, where they were seen by many people.

and this bit

Joshua 10:12-13
The LORD was helping the Israelites defeat the Amorites that day. So about noon, Joshua prayed to the LORD loud enough for the Israelites to hear: “Our LORD, make the sun stop in the sky over Gibeon, and the moon stand still over Aijalon Valley.” So the sun and the moon stopped and stood still until Israel defeated its enemies. This poem can be found in The Book of Jashar. The sun stood still and didn’t go down for about a whole day.


couldnt possibly be metaphor symbolism and allegory, must be literal.

mmmmmmm
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Re: Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman's new book

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heres one

23 After Jesus left in a boat with his disciples, 24 a terrible storm suddenly struck the lake, and waves started splashing into their boat.

Jesus was sound asleep, 25 so the disciples went over to him and woke him up. They said, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

26 But Jesus replied, “Why are you so afraid? You surely don’t have much faith.” Then he got up and ordered the wind and the waves to calm down. And everything was calm.

27 The men in the boat were amazed and said, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him.”

which interpretation makes more sense

he in you has power to calm the turbulent lower nature (symbolic)

or there's a guy stopping hurricanes with his mind (literal)

by the way Doulos i tried the literalist way for a couple of decades but on the third day i rose from the dark tomb of literalism and felt much better.
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