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Penelope wrote:I excuse them, as I hope you confirmed atheists might excuse such as me. I don't care about their being an afterlife....but I do care about their being meaning and reason. I cannot stop searching, because, it matters more than anything. If it transpires that there is no meaning, then I still will never regret my search as it has given my life more depth and it has certainly exercised my intellect.
Of course I excuse them, as did Houdini. In fact, Houdini himself sought out spiritualists in a quest to contact his mother after she died. And, being an illusionist, he easily exposed them one-by-one as frauds. It wasn’t the seekers he meant to expose or disillusion, but those who drained them of their money with phony demonstrations of contacting the dead. Till his dying day, he held out hope of the afterlife and of being able to “cross over” that mystical barrier between life and death, which is why he and Bess made the pact to try and contact each other after he was gone.
As for The Search, it does matter more than anything. For me, The Search is about all there is—without it my life would be virtually meaningless. And by the way, I have yet to “confirm” much of anything concerning my personal religious (or non-religious) beliefs. That’s still an integral part of The Search.
So how do people who believe in an afterlife regard such messages? I will say that the audience in attendance was deeply immersed in such beliefs and indeed this particular show had many more applications to attend than the show could possibly handle.
I know my opinion of such psychic, but what do others think?
LeBeax nailed it for me, Lady.
People may have gleaned that I do not believe in an afterlife, so I don’t satisfy that part of your question.
They are fraud and predators of the vulnerable and credulous. Sadly, the very people who they dupe are willing participants in their own victimization. They would rather believe the lies they hear than listen to that voice in their head which rails that it is all a sham.
They know it already, but they would rather hug a lie than weep at the truth.
The thing is, it doesn’t matter if you lie to yourself about these things. It doesn’t protect us from the truth. People can believe that their souls go on forever if they like, but their ancestors still lay mute and unthinking in the ground.
Bodies aren’t people. People are unique self-sustaining chemical reactions. Bodies are what’s left when that chemical reaction fails and sputters to a halt.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
It's easy to bump the steering wheel on these things.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
lady of shallot wrote:I know my opinion of such psychic, but what do others think?
As an addendum, I might add that before Houdini died, he and his wife Bess made a pact to prove or disprove the notion of communicating with the dead. They agreed that if Houdini found it possible to communicate after death he would send her the message "Rosabelle believe." .
Well this is the way I feel too, that it is a bunch of hooey. The thing is that the psychics purport to the grieving people, an interest in their lives on the part of the departed ones that few relatives express while everyone is living!
I remember my Dad telling me the story about Houdini many, many years ago.
Penny, I'm not sure I understand your post in relation to my question. I am not speaking of a church membership but of individual psychics speaking to individual people (whether pre-screened or not)
However I do think there is a certain "intuition" if you will but I think it is a subconscious sorting of facts that we already possess or knowledge that may be somewhat buried.
Speaking of Jewish people. At the present time I am acquainted with quite a number (have taken up the game of Mah Jongg which traditionally in this country was a game mostly played by Jewish women) Religiously they seem to be the same mixture of faith/non faith as the general population here. However these are mostly older women so have been directly (very directly in one case) involved with the holocaust and so are probably leaning more toward the disbelief side.
O.K. I will apologize to Johnson for getting off topic but the discussion of an after life was not started by me and I did reply to the topic question. . . which I guess in a way should only have been answered by those who in fact, did stop believing!
They are fraud and predators of the vulnerable and credulous. Sadly, the very people who they dupe are willing participants in their own victimization. They would rather believe the lies they hear than listen to that voice in their head which rails that it is all a sham.
It is not accurate to dub all mediums frauds and predators. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who was no dimbo, wrote some very interesting books about Spiritualism and he had absolutely no reason to dupe people. He didn't need the money and he didn't need the adulation because he already had it. There are some excellent books by honourable men written about spiritualism when it was at its height. Like any subject, there are unscrupulous rogues, but also sincere and honest honorable adherents.
My Mum, wasn't religious at all, in fact she was a Marxist who thought religion was the opiate of the people. (I don't adhere to that philosophy either,LOL). My Mum was interested in the phenomena apparent in the spiritualist movement and was always doing table tilting, automatic writing and mucking about in general. She didn't do it 'for' people, in fact, but for her own interest. I went with her to spiritualist meetings and for a little while attended the Sunday School, where I found the teachings (philosophy), actually, made a lot more sense than the myths we were taught at my dear old Church of England. But I went to a Church of England school and I liked the the cavernous old church with stained glass and candles. I am a lot more theatrical than my mum ever was.
OK - johnson - HOW DID YOU STOP BELIEVING - I stopped believing in the absolute truth of the Bible when I read it and found it talked about Balham's Ass talking to him. I stopped believing in the Jewish God when I read about all the animals he demanded be sacrificed. I just decided if that was God, I wasn't going to even acknowledge it, never mind worship it. But I did decide that just because it was obvious that the bible (a collection of random books bound together) wasn't literally true; that did not mean that the deeper, aspect of religion, the life-enhancing, worthwhile aspect, was not worth pursuing.....and I've had enough satisfaction and pure joy at times, to keep me interested over the years. And, the bible has some beautiful and edifying passages, and I still read parts of it sometimes. A hell of a lot of it is bloody boring and penance to sit and read.
Sorry for digressing, but just sometimes, I read things on these forums and I just can't keep my nose out. LOL
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Now Penny has inspired me to speak of my own faith journey.
My parents were very intellectual. My father Jim Tulip taught English literature and spiritual poetry at Sydney University, and my mother Marie Tulip was part of the women's liberation movement, editing a magazine called Magdalene which sought inspiration for visions of equality and freedom within the story of Jesus.
When I first encountered scripture teaching that appeared implausible I had an allergic reaction. I remain allergic to assertions that lack evidence and logic. However, I have been deeply intrigued by questions of ultimate meaning and purpose, addressed from a rational philosophical perspective. My MA thesis explored this question of how modern science fails to provide a sense of unity and coherence, and how such a sense of connection is essential to ethical vision.
The problem of disenchantment seems to me to be key to the question of belief. Science has consciously aimed at disenchantment as an ethical goal, arguing that previous enchanted visions were obscure, illogical, magical, false and deceptive. And yet, enchantment primarily seeks to achieve a sense of cosmic unity, for human beings to find their true identity as part of a bigger cosmic whole. This whole agenda is derided by science but has always struck me as having a real logical force and legitimacy.
This sense of cosmic unity led me to consider how the slow sweep of the stars provided a framework for ancient mythology, including Christianity, and so to explore the Christian vision of time against the astronomical background of precession of the equinox. The close match between Jesus Christ and the natural turning point of time seen in precession initially led me to the idea that Jesus actually was a special person, with miraculous powers derived from a deep sense of cosmic unity.
However, in studying the topic further, always trying to remain allergic to idiocy, I encountered scholarly research on the New Testament which proved to my satisfaction that Jesus was fictional and did not exist. So I stopped believing in Jesus, except as a cosmic mythological allegory.
I have always assessed beliefs against a scientific framework. I remain of the view that the modern scientific paradigm is too limited in its sense of connection. That does not mean that the positive claims of science are false. Science does not rule out enchantment, but it does rule out the supernatural. We have only one universe, and we can see it in the night sky. Beliefs that contradict scientific knowledge are just psychological delusion.
...editing a magazine called Magdalene which sought inspiration for visions of equality and freedom within the story of Jesus.
I was once invited to join an international womens' group called 'The Magdalenes'. I wonder if there is a connection. Certainly the two ladies who invited me were close friends of mine and although older than myself were both well educated. They seemed to be a sisterhood of praying women.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
Per Johnson’s request for us to return to the original theme, here’s my “How did you stop believing?” story:
I was born into a devout Christian family. Both my father and maternal grandfather were Christian ministers in the Disciples of Christ Church (my father later became a medical doctor). From the time I was able, I was forced (sometimes physically) by my father to attend church. Until, that is, my folks were divorced when I was thirteen, after which I refused, except for a few special occasions when my mother begged me to accompany her (Christmas falls on a Sunday, funerals, weddings, etc.).
One might think that it was this mandatory attendance factor that created the resentment leading to my resignation from organized religion, but that was not the case. My doubts about religion originated in Sunday School and from my own reading of the Bible, in which I found so many contradictions and logical flaws, it was almost impossible for me to believe in the accuracy, let alone the validity, of so-called “biblical facts.” At a young age, I found it difficult to believe that this omniscient, all-powerful entity called “God” could have manifested itself with two completely different personalities: the angry, vengeful God of the Old Testament, and the benevolent, loving God of the New Testament manifested in the earthly form of Jesus.
My youthful disillusionment was further exacerbated by the fact that I had a good pair of ears and used to mingle with the adults before and after church, listening to their conversations. I was surprised to find that these conversations were not about God or Jesus or religion; they were mostly about business or gossip, and many comments weren’t at all what I considered Christ-like. At the time, I had the silly idea that church was a place to go and practice one’s religion, not a club where people went to make business deals or engage in critical, sometimes cruel, gossip.
From the age of thirteen until my mid thirties, I remained non-religious, though I did do a good bit of independent study of religious history and secular philosophy, in order to satisfy my personal curiosity and allow me to maintain credibility in the numerous debates I would have with my Christian friends. I later became a science and medical writer, a career that presented me with the opportunity to interview numerous scientists and conduct research into subjects that often contradicted the “faith-based” beliefs of various world religions.
In my late thirties, I spent two years living a sort of “back-to-nature” lifestyle in the woods of north Georgia, wherein I experienced, for the first time, the change of seasons (I grew up in Central Florida), and the “spiritual” aspects of the force of nature. This period had a profound effect on my views of religion and led to a newfound tolerance of those who believe in religious mythology. This was mainly because I began to understand (and appreciate the need for) many of the allegories involved in “historical” accounts handed down through the ages.
Today, I remain essentially atheistic/agnostic, though I am fond of several belief systems and philosophies (particularly those of Native Americans, Buddhists, and Pantheists), and find in them a certain level of comfort and many effective methods of conducting my life. I also remain much more tolerant of others’ belief systems than I was in my early years. And, though I no longer attend services, if I am asked what organized religion I prefer, I usually answer “Unitarian Universalist.”
I had a good pair of ears and used to mingle with the adults before and after church, listening to their conversations. I was surprised to find that these conversations were not about God or Jesus or religion; they were mostly about business or gossip,
LOL!! When you go to Church in a village like ours, you see the local butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker....all trying to pray and looking pious....well...what do you expect to see? You see people....being people...The change comes from within you....like you, when you spent time in a natural environment. I never go to Church now, because I would feel like a hypocrite if I did....but, don't you think it might be good to step out of the world and into a place of quiet and peace? I love our church when it's empty, and I do sometimes go and just sit.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.
He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....
It wasn't me that stopped believing in God, it was my friend. As a matter of fact, the reason was that she thought that God wouuld actually come to her face to face and talk to her. Before, in her prayer she tried calling to God however, she couldn't see God. So, from then on she never believed in God.
