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Young Earth Creation theory put to rest!

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Interbane

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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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At least my end zone is fixed. You know where it is. With science, nothing is fixed.
Yes, your answers are fixed, at 2k years in the past. The book you believe is a work of fiction written by ancients. It's not an answer at all. If you have any understanding of epistemology, you'd understand that a 'fixed' answer is the worst possible type of answer. To think you are absolutely correct is a position of unequaled arrogance. Also, there's no need to hypothesize dark matter to acquire the age of the universe.

Read the following.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

You know, you're allowed to admit you have nothing but your faith. Or at least, that your faith is the premise on which everything else rests.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Interbane wrote:
At least my end zone is fixed. You know where it is. With science, nothing is fixed.
Yes, your answers are fixed, at 2k years in the past. The book you believe is a work of fiction written by ancients. It's not an answer at all. If you have any understanding of epistemology, you'd understand that a 'fixed' answer is the worst possible type of answer. To think you are absolutely correct is a position of unequaled arrogance. Also, there's no need to hypothesize dark matter to acquire the age of the universe.

Read the following.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

You know, you're allowed to admit you have nothing but your faith. Or at least, that your faith is the premise on which everything else rests.
I had looked at that article before but reject it as being fanciful. One of the models yields an potential error in one direction of infinity, really, why include that one. If I average the errors using the models presented the plus error is infinity, and the minus errors are amazingly accurate. Well, if you layer on enough assumptions and caveats, you will get the result you want.

Suppose a scientist at a major university did an experiment he or she devised which yielded an age of the universe of 8,000 years, what would he or she assume? I'll telll you what; the experiment was flawed, and they would keep mucking with it until they got the number 'right'. But scientists never fudge data do they? East Anglia anyone?
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Suppose a scientist at a major university did an experiment he or she devised which yielded an age of the universe of 8,000 years, what would he or she assume? I'll telll you what; the experiment was flawed, and they would keep mucking with it until they got the number 'right'. But scientists never fudge data do they? East Anglia anyone?
Yes, of course. Misdirection aside, scientists from all across the world have reviewed and repeated the experiments, including Christians. The corroboration showing the universe is billions of years old is gargantuan. You can't ignore it or misdirect from it. Doing a google search, there's tens of millions of hits for the age of the universe, with the first ten pages being links to alternative various sources showing studies confirming the age from universities all across the world using a variety of methods. There are even religious sites showing why the evidence is so overwhelming and that YEC is simply untenable. Such incredible corroboration, especially of evolution and the age of the Earth, are why there is no debate. The Earth is not young, period.

If the amount of corroboration sunk in at all, the only thing you could be thinking is either I'm lying, making it up, or there is a vast conspiracy that is worldwide. For the first two, you can check yourself. So it must be the third. Thousands of organizations across the globe are simultaneously fudging numbers and making stuff up. They all have some 'agenda', or some 'reason' to show the age of the universe to be billions of years old. They either really hate YEC or are all following some religion I've never heard of! What other motive is there!?! Stahrwe, you're being delusional. Think about it!
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Interbane wrote:
Suppose a scientist at a major university did an experiment he or she devised which yielded an age of the universe of 8,000 years, what would he or she assume? I'll telll you what; the experiment was flawed, and they would keep mucking with it until they got the number 'right'. But scientists never fudge data do they? East Anglia anyone?
Yes, of course. Misdirection aside, scientists from all across the world have reviewed and repeated the experiments, including Christians. The corroboration showing the universe is billions of years old is gargantuan. You can't ignore it or misdirect from it. Doing a google search, there's tens of millions of hits for the age of the universe, with the first ten pages being links to alternative various sources showing studies confirming the age from universities all across the world using a variety of methods. There are even religious sites showing why the evidence is so overwhelming and that YEC is simply untenable. Such incredible corroboration, especially of evolution and the age of the Earth, are why there is no debate. The Earth is not young, period.

If the amount of corroboration sunk in at all, the only thing you could be thinking is either I'm lying, making it up, or there is a vast conspiracy that is worldwide. For the first two, you can check yourself. So it must be the third. Thousands of organizations across the globe are simultaneously fudging numbers and making stuff up. They all have some 'agenda', or some 'reason' to show the age of the universe to be billions of years old. They either really hate YEC or are all following some religion I've never heard of! What other motive is there!?! Stahrwe, you're being delusional. Think about it!
How much federal grant money is there to research the Bible?
Do scientists fudge results?
Do scientists ever conform their results the peer expectations?

Science is no different than any other economic enterprise.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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How much federal grant money is there to research the Bible?
Do scientists fudge results?
Do scientists ever conform their results the peer expectations?

Science is no different than any other economic enterprise.
What do you mean "research the bible?" Why would anyone fund such research? It is a dead end, if you mean research into a literal interpretation.

Yes, scientists fudge results. I've said so every post so far. Yes, results are often times biased by many factors. However, this doesn't even scratch the surface of the amount of corroboration there is for the age of the universe and the age of the Earth. Every party on Earth who does such research would need to fudge their results in the same direction, by an amount far greater than is 'fudgable!' How in the hell can these thousands of independent agencies/scientists be off by a factor of millions?!? That's like attempting to estimate the age of the oldest person on Earth, and accidentally claiming they are 120 million years old instead of only 120. And then not one single person amongst the thousands would catch the mistake. In fact, everyone who performed a different method of determining the age of the universe would "accidentally" have to be wrong by a factor of millions!!! That's not fudging, and that's not conforming to peer expectations. That's a mass conspiracy against YEC that could never be covered up. Seriously, do a Google search, and look at the papers from this month alone, and all the universities across the nation and across the world.

All it would take is one, ONE, grad student to show how it's even possible for the universe to be less than a billion years old, and he'd instantly be world famous and on the cover of Times magazine. I'm not understanding how your brain is dodging the truth here. How can you not see it? I'm sitting here trying to think of what to write, and can't think of anything other than what I'm already writing to make it as obvious as possible. You are just plain delusional!
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Interbane wrote:
How much federal grant money is there to research the Bible?
Do scientists fudge results?
Do scientists ever conform their results the peer expectations?

Science is no different than any other economic enterprise.
What do you mean "research the bible?" Why would anyone fund such research? It is a dead end, if you mean research into a literal interpretation.

Yes, scientists fudge results. I've said so every post so far. Yes, results are often times biased by many factors. However, this doesn't even scratch the surface of the amount of corroboration there is for the age of the universe and the age of the Earth. Every party on Earth who does such research would need to fudge their results in the same direction, by an amount far greater than is 'fudgable!' How in the hell can these thousands of independent agencies/scientists be off by a factor of millions?!? That's like attempting to estimate the age of the oldest person on Earth, and accidentally claiming they are 120 million years old instead of only 120. And then not one single person amongst the thousands would catch the mistake. In fact, everyone who performed a different method of determining the age of the universe would "accidentally" have to be wrong by a factor of millions!!! That's not fudging, and that's not conforming to peer expectations. That's a mass conspiracy against YEC that could never be covered up. Seriously, do a Google search, and look at the papers from this month alone, and all the universities across the nation and across the world.

All it would take is one, ONE, grad student to show how it's even possible for the universe to be less than a billion years old, and he'd instantly be world famous and on the cover of Times magazine. I'm not understanding how your brain is dodging the truth here. How can you not see it? I'm sitting here trying to think of what to write, and can't think of anything other than what I'm already writing to make it as obvious as possible. You are just plain delusional!
No, he would be villified, pilloried, scoffed at drummed out of, denied resources , have grants pulled
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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No, he would be villified, pilloried, scoffed at drummed out of, denied resources , have grants pulled
For what reason? The only answer is that there is a worldwide conspiracy. Would the astronomy department at Stanford collude with all other universities in the US and across the world to make sure the truth was kept a secret? Does the government want us to think the universe is older than it is, and has it subverted researchers from across the globe? Is there some secret "old universe" agency that sends out assassins for anyone who finds contradictory evidence? Perhaps the answer is that there is no contradictory evidence! The very best you can do is group together estimates from the past century and apply mathematical wizardry to shoehorn it to conform to an already held belief. Among those estimates are some that have been proven false. Religion has killed scientists for attempting to show contrary findings. Science sometimes ridicules the outliers, but in the end the evidence always stands on its own. Even the most castrated and ridiculed scientists who were onto the truth were eventually redeemed. One of the most powerful characteristics of science is it's ability to self-correct. The very characteristic that you hate, that it is so extremely flexible. There is no such thing as "the" truth. Only world views with a "motive" behind them hold so inflexibly to what they believe to be true. Science has no other motive but to discover our universe. As I've admitted before and will admit again, there are politics and personal biases that sometimes get in the way, but these are a drop in the ocean compared to what you're suggesting.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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The following is from a website devoted to being skeptical of the scientific process. Being skeptical of science is something I wholeheartedly agree with. We must have no sacred cows. The initial bolded text at the following link says it best:

http://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html

Skepticism is a primary tool of science. We'd be hypocrites if we never directed a skeptical eye towards Scientific Skepticism itself. Denied imperfections and errors are free to grow without limit, and Skepticism is not immune to this problem. Unbridled gullibility can destroy science, but unbridled disbelief is no less a threat because it brings both a tolerance for bias and ridicule as well as the supression of untested new ideas. Better to take a middle road between total closed-mindedness and total gullibility. Practice pragmatism, pursue humility, and maintain a clear, honest, and continuing view of ourselves and the less noble of our own behaviors.

Weird science versus revolutionary science

While it's true that at least 99% of revolutionary announcements from the fringes of science are just as bogus as they seem, we cannot dismiss every one of them without investigation. If we do, then we'll certainly take our place among the ranks of scoffers who accidentally helped delay numbers of major scientific discoveries throughout history. Beware, for many discoveries such as powered flight and drifting continents today only appear sane and acceptable because we have such powerful hindsight. These same advancements were seen as obviously a bunch of disgusting lunatic garbage during the years they were first discovered.
In science, pursuing revolutionary advancements can be like searching for diamonds hidden in sewage. It's a shame that the realms of questionable ideas contain "diamonds" of great value. This makes the judging crazy theories far more difficult. If crazy discoveries were always bogus, then we'd have good reason to reject them without investigation. However, since the diamonds exist, we must distrust our first impressions. Sometimes the "obvious" craziness turns out to be a genuine cutting-edge discovery. As with the little child questioning the emperor's clothing, sometimes the entire scientific community is misguided and incompetent. Sometimes only the lone voice of the maverick scientist is telling the truth.

Below is a list of scientists who were reviled for their crackpottery, only to be later proven correct. Today's science texts are dishonest to the extent that they hide these huge mistakes made by the scientific community. They rarely discuss the acts of intellectual suppression which were directed at the following researchers by their colleagues. And... after wide reading, I've never encountered any similar list.[1] This is very telling.



"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

THE LIST: scroll down
To add: Gilbert Ling, John C. Lilly

Arrhenius (ion chemistry)
Alfven, Hans (galaxy-scale plasma dynamics)
Baird, John L. (television camera)
Bakker, Robert (fast, warm-blooded dinosaurs)
Bardeen & Brattain (transistor)
Bretz J Harlen (ice age geology)
Chandrasekhar, Subrahmanyan (black holes in 1930)
Chladni, Ernst (meteorites in 1800)
Crick & Watson (DNA)
Doppler (optical Doppler effect)
Folk, Robert L. (existence and importance of nanobacteria)
Galvani (bioelectricity)
Harvey, William (circulation of blood, 1628)
Krebs (ATP energy, Krebs cycle)
Galileo (supported the Copernican viewpoint)
Gauss, Karl F. (nonEuclidean geometery)
Binning/Roher/Gimzewski (scanning-tunneling microscope)
Goddard, Robert (rocket-powered space ships)
Goethe (Land color theory)
Gold, Thomas (deep non-biological petroleum deposits)
Gold, Thomas (deep mine bacteria)
Lister, J (sterilizing)
T Maiman (Laser)
"Concepts which have proved useful for ordering things easily assume so great an authority over us, that we forget their terrestrial origin and accept them as unalterable facts. They then become labeled as 'conceptual necessities,' etc. The road of scientific progress is frequently blocked for long periods by such errors." - Einstein
Margulis, Lynn (endosymbiotic organelles)
Mayer, Julius R. (The Law of Conservation of Energy)
Marshall, B (ulcers caused by bacteria, helicobacter pylori)
McClintlock, Barbara (mobile genetic elements, "jumping genes", transposons)
Newlands, J. (pre-Mendeleev periodic table)
Nottebohm, F. (neurogenesis: brains can grow neurons)
Ohm, George S. (Ohm's Law)
Ovshinsky, Stanford R. (amorphous semiconductor devices)
Pasteur, Louis (germ theory of disease)
Prusiner, Stanley (existence of prions, 1982)
Rous, Peyton (viruses cause cancer)
Semmelweis, I. (surgeons wash hands, puerperal fever )
Steen-McIntyre, Virginia (southwest US indians villiage , 300,000BC)
Tesla, Nikola (Earth electrical resonance, "Schumann" resonance)
Tesla, Nikola (brushless AC motor)
J H van't Hoff (molecules are 3D)
Warren, Warren S (flaw in MRI theory)
Wegener, Alfred (continental drift)
Wright, Wilbur & Orville (flying machines)
Zwicky, Fritz (existence of dark matter, 1933)
Zweig, George (quark theory)
"Men show their character in nothing more clearly than by what they think laughable." -J. W. Goethe

Some ridiculed ideas which had no single supporter:
Ball lightning (lacking a theory, it was long dismissed as retinal afterimages)
Catastrophism (ridicule of rapid Earth changes, asteroid mass extinctions)
Child abuse (before 1950, doctors were mystified by "spontaneous" childhood bruising)
Cooperation or altruism between animals (versus Evolution's required competition)
Instantaneous meteor noises (evidence rejected because sound should be delayed by distance)
Mind-body connection (psychoneuroimmunology, doctors ridiculed any emotional basis for disease)
Perceptrons (later vindicated as Neural Networks)
Permanent magnet levitation ("Levitron" shouldn't have worked)
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Below is a list of scientists who were reviled for their crackpottery, only to be later proven correct. Today's science texts are dishonest to the extent that they hide these huge mistakes made by the scientific community. They rarely discuss the acts of intellectual suppression which were directed at the following researchers by their colleagues.
Hum, I was around during Watson and Crick's work at The Cavandish and after. I don't remember any big negitive comments from the recognized scientific community about the suggestion of the structure of DNA based on physical modeling. Did I miss something? Is there a reference?

Of course, the thrust of this post is right on. Question everything, get all the information you can, make up your own mind, change your mind when new evidence makes it clear that your opinion is wrong. The last phrase is the hardest to put into practice. We humans are quick to judge and slow to recognize, and act on, our own error.
Last edited by GaryG48 on Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Young Earth Theory put to rest!

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Interbane wrote: Below is a list of scientists who were reviled for their crackpottery, only to be later proven correct. Today's science texts are dishonest to the extent that they hide these huge mistakes made by the scientific community. They rarely discuss the acts of intellectual suppression which were directed at the following researchers by their colleagues.
I have heard that the scientific community is fairly ruthless in terms of putting new theories to the test. Which is why there are scientific journals. That peer review process filters out the bogus from the genuine. As Interbane previously said, individuals can fudge results, either consciously or subconsciously. That's why the process of science works because it demands repeatability and corroboration and discipline.

With regards to the age of the universe there is corroboration across multiple disciplines giving us a very high degree of confidence that the age is about 14 billion years old. This is the case in evolution as well. We have corroboration across multiple disciplines arriving at the same conclusions. They corroborate each other independently. We can make predictions based on our expanding base of knowledge.

A very important consideration is that scientific knowledge advances over time as new evidence comes along. It's a dynamic and ongoing process, not static. Thus geocentrism was replaced by heliocentrism. And we know today that heliocentrism is only partially right because the sun is not the center of the universe. Our confidence is greater for theories that have stood the test of time.
-Geo
Question everything
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