Jnoir, even people who love us very much can be mistaken and have faults. A truly loving family would be able to support you in making choices for your own spiritual life. Just as those of us who are atheists have loving relationships with our believing relatives.
You do not express familial love only to people who do exactly as you want them to. That is not love. That is bondage.
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A fear of death.
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lady of shallot
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stahrwe
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Re: A fear of death.
Jnoir,
If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
If others are wrong and Jesus will save you but you reject Him how have you been harmed?
I have told you that perfect love will drive out your fear. Some here say that's a childish thing to believe. When they say that they confirm what Jesus said about becoming part of His family. We must become like children.
Most 8 year olds can read the Bible, even the King James Version and understand the words. And I know of no one who will encourage you to fake it. As a matter of fact that is exactly the opposite what other Christians will tell you. I wouldn't lie to you about this. The stakes are too high.
If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
If others are wrong and Jesus will save you but you reject Him how have you been harmed?
I have told you that perfect love will drive out your fear. Some here say that's a childish thing to believe. When they say that they confirm what Jesus said about becoming part of His family. We must become like children.
Most 8 year olds can read the Bible, even the King James Version and understand the words. And I know of no one who will encourage you to fake it. As a matter of fact that is exactly the opposite what other Christians will tell you. I wouldn't lie to you about this. The stakes are too high.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Re: A fear of death.
So i should believe you blindly just incase you are right? Sounds a lot like pascals wager, which has many obvious faults.stahrwe wrote:Jnoir,
If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
If others are wrong and Jesus will save you but you reject Him how have you been harmed?.
Ive been harmed by living the one life i have based on a lie. I appreciate you trying to help me, but i can't really see anything short of Jesus showing me the way himself that would change my mind.stahrwe wrote:If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
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johnson1010
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Re: A fear of death.
You can believe in jesus if you want to, but that will only piss of Odin.
He's the one you are best off believing in, just to hedge your bets...
haha.
Seriously, if you are going that route, people should do their research and find the religion with THE most painful hell, and THE most terrifically pleasureable heaven and choose that religion.
That way, you've hedged your bets in the most extreme possible situation. Good luck, though. There are thousands and thousands of religions and variations of religions.
Worst of all, what if the ONE TRUE religion has already been forgotten, and we are all destined to go to some sub-saharan invented hell that nobody alive today has ever heard of?
He's the one you are best off believing in, just to hedge your bets...
haha.
Seriously, if you are going that route, people should do their research and find the religion with THE most painful hell, and THE most terrifically pleasureable heaven and choose that religion.
That way, you've hedged your bets in the most extreme possible situation. Good luck, though. There are thousands and thousands of religions and variations of religions.
Worst of all, what if the ONE TRUE religion has already been forgotten, and we are all destined to go to some sub-saharan invented hell that nobody alive today has ever heard of?
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
-Guillermo Del Torro
Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?
Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?
Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Murrill
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Re: A fear of death.
Jnoir,
I had a similar experience when I was about your age, except that I was captive in a small (and small-minded) town during a time when the internet was not even a fantasy. Good for you for making use of resources available to you to inquire & think & dare to have independent thoughts.
Like you I questioned the wisdom of a diety that required blind loyalty. There was a dichotomy, I thought, in the nature of the demands that would entitlwe me to receive the benefits it purported to deliver. So I had to believe that a son had to be nailed to a cross to satisfy his father's need before my "sins" could be forgiven? Not a chance. But as someone on this discussion predicted for you, I was told I would understand once I had the holy spirit.
You seem more mature than I was at age 16, having studied various schools of thought. It was through my college years that I was exposed to various philosophies, & I began to consider that there was something other than what I had been force fed. I have, at times, wished I could find solace in mainstream religion: It just seemed so much easier, so much more accessible. But so shallow & ego-based. One college course that resonated with me was called "Death and Dying." (I attended a Quaker school that emphasized interdisciplinary studies.) We read, among other things, some writings by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. She was a psychiatrist whose life's work was devoted to death & dying issues. One line from a book of hers remains with me (I paraphrase here): In facing death we face the more ultimate question of the meaning of life. I have chewed on this over all these years, always surprised at the clarity it gives me. At the risk of over-simpplifying here, consider that if I view life as hard & painful & unfair, so will I view death. Haven't most of us learned of someone's "untimely" death and thought, "Gone too soon"? The error in thinking, I believe, is that most of us view our physical lives as entitlements, and death deprives us of something we think we deserve. Perhaps it is helpful to observe ourselves in this physical container as a visitor, as being in a phase or transition.
I do believe I have a soul, or spirit, that is universal: It runs through each of us. That said, I consider myself an atheist. It comforts me to know that my spirit will not die or extinguish. Spirit is constant; it is not vindictive or punishing; it does not apply values such as "good" or "bad"; it just is. Death is but another of life's transitions.
I enjoy reading Eckhart Tolle (The Power of Now is a good one), and the Tao is a good meditative springboard. I also like A Course in Miracles (ACIM), but it is a bit hard to read & understand without a guide. Marianne Williamson's A Return to Love is a good ACIM adjunct. Be advised that ACIM uses the name "jesus", although it is not a reference to that of Christianity. Even so, I just substitute "Spirit" for "Jesus," which makes reading easier.
Thank you for bringing such a thoughtful topic to this forum. This has been a very good discussion. I hope we will hear more from you.
I had a similar experience when I was about your age, except that I was captive in a small (and small-minded) town during a time when the internet was not even a fantasy. Good for you for making use of resources available to you to inquire & think & dare to have independent thoughts.
Like you I questioned the wisdom of a diety that required blind loyalty. There was a dichotomy, I thought, in the nature of the demands that would entitlwe me to receive the benefits it purported to deliver. So I had to believe that a son had to be nailed to a cross to satisfy his father's need before my "sins" could be forgiven? Not a chance. But as someone on this discussion predicted for you, I was told I would understand once I had the holy spirit.
You seem more mature than I was at age 16, having studied various schools of thought. It was through my college years that I was exposed to various philosophies, & I began to consider that there was something other than what I had been force fed. I have, at times, wished I could find solace in mainstream religion: It just seemed so much easier, so much more accessible. But so shallow & ego-based. One college course that resonated with me was called "Death and Dying." (I attended a Quaker school that emphasized interdisciplinary studies.) We read, among other things, some writings by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. She was a psychiatrist whose life's work was devoted to death & dying issues. One line from a book of hers remains with me (I paraphrase here): In facing death we face the more ultimate question of the meaning of life. I have chewed on this over all these years, always surprised at the clarity it gives me. At the risk of over-simpplifying here, consider that if I view life as hard & painful & unfair, so will I view death. Haven't most of us learned of someone's "untimely" death and thought, "Gone too soon"? The error in thinking, I believe, is that most of us view our physical lives as entitlements, and death deprives us of something we think we deserve. Perhaps it is helpful to observe ourselves in this physical container as a visitor, as being in a phase or transition.
I do believe I have a soul, or spirit, that is universal: It runs through each of us. That said, I consider myself an atheist. It comforts me to know that my spirit will not die or extinguish. Spirit is constant; it is not vindictive or punishing; it does not apply values such as "good" or "bad"; it just is. Death is but another of life's transitions.
I enjoy reading Eckhart Tolle (The Power of Now is a good one), and the Tao is a good meditative springboard. I also like A Course in Miracles (ACIM), but it is a bit hard to read & understand without a guide. Marianne Williamson's A Return to Love is a good ACIM adjunct. Be advised that ACIM uses the name "jesus", although it is not a reference to that of Christianity. Even so, I just substitute "Spirit" for "Jesus," which makes reading easier.
Thank you for bringing such a thoughtful topic to this forum. This has been a very good discussion. I hope we will hear more from you.
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stahrwe
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Re: A fear of death.
PW is not in itself a reason to believe, neither is it a reason not to believe. It is intended to stimulate thinking. I suspect that anyone claiming at the last judgement that they were a Christian because they were hedging their bets would be rejected. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus and not a wager.Jnoir wrote:So i should believe you blindly just incase you are right? Sounds a lot like pascals wager, which has many obvious faults.stahrwe wrote:Jnoir,
If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
If others are wrong and Jesus will save you but you reject Him how have you been harmed?.
stahrwe wrote:If I am wrong, Jesus won't save you but I tell you He will and you believe me how have you been harmed?
It is hard to trust again once that trust has been betrayed. Sadly, there are some who have perverted Christianity for their own purposes even to the extent of revising the Bible to support their teachings.Jnoir wrote:Ive been harmed by living the one life i have based on a lie. I appreciate you trying to help me, but i can't really see anything short of Jesus showing me the way himself that would change my mind.
If you want to believe that this life is all you get and when you die YOU are gone except for the chemicals that are recycled as part of the worm feast they you should try as hard as possible to buy into what those other than Dawn and I are telling you. Convince yourself so you can be happy. On the other hand, if you know that is not true, that you are more than chemical reactions look for the answer. You say that only Jesus can convince you. In fact, that is true of every Christian. No one becomes a Christian because of what Dawn or Stahrwe or anyone else says. It is not a logical conclusion that can be neatly tied up in something like PW. Except that it is the Holy Spirit and not Jesus who does the convincing.
You probably don't buy this. It may even sound silly but do this for yourself; throw away your New World translation and get yourself a legitimate translation of the Bible; King James Version, New International Version and read the Books -Romans and John. It will take only a few minutes. Aren't you worth that?
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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lady of shallot
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Re: A fear of death.
The difficulty that Stahrwe has here, as in all his posts; is his belief that anyone reading the Bible will be convinced of its' veracity in the same way that he is. That is why it is his constant mantra. If people say they have read it he responds that they haven't read it in the "right" way, or that they are taking certain verses out of context, or they didn't go from Genesis to Revelations in one fell swoop. Like all of religious fantasies they have somehow failed.
Of course read the Bible if you choose, the language of the King James version is incomparably beautiful. You may also enjoy "God's Secretaries" by Adam Nicholson about the writing of this version of the Bible.
In an earlier post Dawn cautioned about the care parents give in guiding and educating their children. She used as an analogy a hot stove. The problem with this analogy is that it won't take a child long to learn first hand for himself the danger of touching a hot stove. But have you ever in your life or has anyone else through history ever been able to validate, verify, quantify, any one little thing about such a supposed life for ill or good that survives our last breathes? Is anything demonstrably true about anything they say about the interaction of any human being and any extra terrestrial being? Do you think a bottle of wine really becomes the blood of Jesus in millions of churches around the world for millennium because a man in a long dress has said some words over it?
Do you think that some people voting on the specialness of a particular individual and thus elevating that person to "sainthood" effectuates any difference to the cosmos? Anyway who are the human beings to dictate to God who should be a saint? What kind of a God is that.
Actually that is the only God we all have. One who is the creation and the tool of the men who have invented him. That way they can then control the people they share their time on earth with.
Of course read the Bible if you choose, the language of the King James version is incomparably beautiful. You may also enjoy "God's Secretaries" by Adam Nicholson about the writing of this version of the Bible.
In an earlier post Dawn cautioned about the care parents give in guiding and educating their children. She used as an analogy a hot stove. The problem with this analogy is that it won't take a child long to learn first hand for himself the danger of touching a hot stove. But have you ever in your life or has anyone else through history ever been able to validate, verify, quantify, any one little thing about such a supposed life for ill or good that survives our last breathes? Is anything demonstrably true about anything they say about the interaction of any human being and any extra terrestrial being? Do you think a bottle of wine really becomes the blood of Jesus in millions of churches around the world for millennium because a man in a long dress has said some words over it?
Do you think that some people voting on the specialness of a particular individual and thus elevating that person to "sainthood" effectuates any difference to the cosmos? Anyway who are the human beings to dictate to God who should be a saint? What kind of a God is that.
Actually that is the only God we all have. One who is the creation and the tool of the men who have invented him. That way they can then control the people they share their time on earth with.
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stahrwe
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Re: A fear of death.
Jnoir, Johnson1010's argument is part of the Atheist Urban Legends. Show me the holy writings of Odin, or any other god.johnson1010 wrote:You can believe in jesus if you want to, but that will only piss of Odin.
He's the one you are best off believing in, just to hedge your bets...
haha.
Seriously, if you are going that route, people should do their research and find the religion with THE most painful hell, and THE most terrifically pleasureable heaven and choose that religion.
That way, you've hedged your bets in the most extreme possible situation. Good luck, though. There are thousands and thousands of religions and variations of religions.
Worst of all, what if the ONE TRUE religion has already been forgotten, and we are all destined to go to some sub-saharan invented hell that nobody alive today has ever heard of?
Show me the schools founded to teach people about Odin.
Show me the cultures which have been improved by exposure to Odin.
Show me the Odin missionaries.
Show me the great art celebrating Odin
Show me the great music honoring Odin
Show me the live changed by Odin
Johnson1010's implication is that no one can know that Christianity is the true religion. That is not true.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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stahrwe
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Re: A fear of death.
Jnoir,
for some reason The Lady not only feels the necessity of editorizing my posts but adding to them too. I did not say that you have to read the Bible books John and Romans the 'right way". In fact, what I said has nothing to do with you.
Ignore her recommendation about God's Secretaries until after you read Romans and John. I have the book and it is interesting but it is a diversion from our discussion. My point wasn't that the KJV is the best, only that it is a satifactory replacement for the New World Translation, which you should avoid.
for some reason The Lady not only feels the necessity of editorizing my posts but adding to them too. I did not say that you have to read the Bible books John and Romans the 'right way". In fact, what I said has nothing to do with you.
Ignore her recommendation about God's Secretaries until after you read Romans and John. I have the book and it is interesting but it is a diversion from our discussion. My point wasn't that the KJV is the best, only that it is a satifactory replacement for the New World Translation, which you should avoid.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
Sum n = -1/12
n=1
where n are natural numbers.
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lady of shallot
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Re: A fear of death.
Stahrwe:
Therefore if you do not have such a reaction, insight, learning from these books you will indeed have failed. Maybe I'm wrong and the info to be gleaned is of a different kind. Think I will read them myself.
It is quite possible I am wrong but the way I read the italicized sentence above, is that the referenced sections will somehow have a very meaningful impact on you "Aren't you worth that" certainly implies that.but do this for yourself; throw away your New World translation and get yourself a legitimate translation of the Bible; King James Version, New International Version and read the Books -Romans and John. It will take only a few minutes. Aren't you worth that?
Therefore if you do not have such a reaction, insight, learning from these books you will indeed have failed. Maybe I'm wrong and the info to be gleaned is of a different kind. Think I will read them myself.
