Occupy Wallstreet.

[R. LeBeaux]

Keeping tax rates low for corporations is important for attracting investment, keeping jobs in your country, and giving the corporation/business money to expand.

Lowering corporate tax rates has never been shown to correlate with the creation of jobs. This is part of the ongoing myth that Reaganomics (called “Voodoo Economics” by many prominent economists), or the “trickle-down theory,” actually benefits the poor and middle class. Note the fact that, during the Bush era (G.W., that is), taxes were lowered on the rich and corporations, and by the end of his administration we were losing jobs at a rate between 750,000 and 800,000 a month. If you give corporations a tax break, they basically say “Thanks a lot,” then add the amount they save to their profit line.

Jobs are created by consumer spending, which increases demand for products and services, and in turn makes corporations expand their workforces to meet that demand. Consumer spending is stimulated by confidence in the economy’s long-term viability, which leads to confidence among consumers that they are going to continue being employed. Consumer spending is not stimulated by adding to the profits of corporations through a lowering of their tax rates. All that does is add to their coffers, while reducing federal and state tax revenues and, consequently, increasing unemployment because of the loss of government jobs.

[President Camacho]

I really didn't mean to put 'smart' and 'unethical' so close together in my argument as to allow someone the opportunity to infer I see them as bestest of buddies. Intelligent people are usually more ethical than unintelligent people but the ability to spot advantage, as in chess, does take smarts.

On to the belief in business. People run businesses and people are weak. They seek advantage and easy profit when they can get it. This is WHY we have regulated them SOOOO much... FDA anyone?

You don't 'believe' most businesses are unethical? It's in the news all the time how unethical they are. How they cut corners and cause mass death, how they cut corners and cause massive oil spills, how they cut corners and cause economic collapse, how they cut corners and offer food that's unsanitary, how they give jobs to illegal residents... what is your belief based on? How do you think the tax code got to be so big? Who is big Tobacco? Again, what is your belief based on? Those friendly little product guarantees they give you? Their cute little commercials? What?

"Not my comment, but I agree with it. We all make choices and we weigh the output with the reward. Some people are willing to work very hard to have the fancy house etc., some people would rather work less and have less. This does not mean that if they could have the best of both worlds, they would not take advantage of it, which is big part of the problem today."

Some people are willing to work very hard to have the fancy house etc. It's amazing to me that you can say this when there are people that have 2 jobs and will never own their own home. What about the person who doesn't have to work a day in his life? I really don't understand the person who equates wealth exclusively with hard work. They obviously haven't had the opportunity to stare at a hamster wheel and picture themselves inside it. I want to go back in time to a slave plantation and I want to tell a slave to work harder so that his Massa gets a better harvest so that he may have better food. I bet I could talk them into it!

Your argument about western nations is an interesting one and I'll have to sit on it for a while. It made me pause... This is a larger issue but income inequality in this country needs to be addressed before we can address your concern. Don't you think? Let us lead the world then and set an example. No, I don't mean all out socialism or communism or any other conservative buzz word you've been taught to irrationally fear. No I don't mean income equality. I'm for a lower income disparity and more popular democracy. Look at this....



We have about the same income disparity of China... hahaha!!!


People need to get their heads out of the huddle and take a gander up at the Box seats.

No one wants revolution... but if you push and mess with people enough. If you poke enough. If you tease enough... someone is going to bite.

[geo]

. . . I do think it rather ironic that protesters in the United States are crying about the unfairness of life and distribution of wealth. I would say that the whole western world lives in the top 5%, which means in order to make life fair we all have to give up a whole lot. It does seem to be a big contradiction to be living in one of the most advantaged countries in the world and also complain about the unfairness of the distribution of wealth.

So much to talk about in this thread, but I only have time for a drive-by comment right now. There's a question of disparity in the U.S. and I think it's a serious problem. I don't mind that there are some people who are filthy rich. Some people are just insanely good at making money. However, as Camacho says, business is cutthroat and there is no question that there's some funny business going on. We clearly need some government oversight. How much oversight is the question of the day. Arguably there's too little oversight in recent years. Conservatives tend to belittle environmental regulations, but I think we need them because businesses will stop at nothing to make a buck. I'm not passing judgment. It's a fact.

But despite the disparity in our country, the poverty level of today is a far cry from the poverty levels of yesteryear. A great deal of wealth has been created and it tends to benefit all (some more than others obviously). So, yes, it is ironic that the people of one of the most wealthy nations in the world are complaining about income distribution. Not only do we have it a lot better than just about everyone on the planet, but we're a lot better off than we were in the past too.

Here's a very cool animated graph that shows global wealth and health levels since the 1800s . . .

http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorM ... example=75

[Interbane]

This is something that many people do not understand and so they are misled by cries about the low tax rates paid by 'rich corporations'.

This illustrates part of the problem. The complexity of the issues. The double taxation is not esoteric knowledge, it's widely known. That the government double dips into the pockets of many Americans this way is not the harsh treatment you think it is. Corporations still manage to pay a pittance in taxes, from one of the twelve million loopholes in the tax code.

The complexity of these issues is vast. For every rebuttal you hear on Fox News, you can be sure the topic goes much deeper, and very few "points" can captured in a single sentence except the trend of increasing wealth disparity. That point cannot be ignored, and everything else follows from it(or leads to it). It is not a specific point, but more of a guiding fact, used as a sort of principle.

My point is, if the wealthiest of Americans are burdened by this "double dip taxation", they certainly don't show it. Quite the opposite in fact. Not that we need to triple dip. We need to burn the current tax code and start over. I don't see large scale tax reform happening, but that's exactly what we need.

[realiz]

You don't 'believe' most businesses are unethical? It's in the news all the time how unethical they are. How they cut corners and cause mass death, how they cut corners and cause massive oil spills, how they cut corners and cause economic collapse, how they cut corners and offer food that's unsanitary, how they give jobs to illegal residents... what is your belief based on? How do you think the tax code got to be so big? Who is big Tobacco? Again, what is your belief based on? Those friendly little product guarantees they give you? Their cute little commercials? What?

I don't really believe most of what I see on the news. I know that there are many unethical business practices and those are the ones that make great news stories. But, for all the bad you see on the news, there are just as many good people and good stories out there that you do not hear about. Yes, more regulation and enforcement is needed because power and greed do corrupt.

I really don't understand the person who equates wealth exclusively with hard work.

I did not mean that I equated wealth exclusively with hard work. I equate hard work with improving the situation you find yourself in, and I was referring to what I had observed in my life, which does not involve slavery or abject poverty where there is little chance that hard work get you very much.

No, I don't mean all out socialism or communism or any other conservative buzz word you've been taught to irrationally fear. No I don't mean income equality. I'm for a lower income disparity and more popular democracy. Look at this....

I think we've seen very well the communism does not work, though as an ideal it has appeal to many. I do believe in socialism to a degree, but finding a stable balance between between pure capitilism and socialism is impossible. Leaning more one way will solve many problems in the short term, but then the problems with that particular system will multiply and grow until the pendulum must swing or the system will fail.

I can see by the Gini Index that Canada and the United States are going different directions here, with Canada moving towards more equality and US less, but Canada's bar line stops in early 1990. I wonder what the current level is for Canada?

Note the fact that, during the Bush era (G.W., that is), taxes were lowered on the rich and corporations, and by the end of his administration we were losing jobs at a rate between 750,000 and 800,000 a month. If you give corporations a tax break, they basically say “Thanks a lot,” then add the amount they save to their profit line.

Lowering the tax on corporations is not the same as lowering the tax on the rich. I only believe that the corporate tax rate in any country should stay competitive world-wide for the good of a country. I don't thing you can assume that because the tax rate was lowered those jobs were lost as there are many factors to consider. The rich should pay a fair share of taxes, but I really don't know what is fair.

When you say that a corporation says, Thanks a lot and adds it to their profit line, I am not sure exactly what you mean. Yes, they have more profit which they will use for something. Profit it not a bad thing. If they decide to pay dividends, it may benefit thousands of shareholders who then might be those consumers who do the spending. If the corporation decides to expand operations because of increased profits that would mean more jobs.

That the government double dips into the pockets of many Americans this way is not the harsh treatment you think it is. Corporations still manage to pay a pittance in taxes, from one of the twelve million loopholes in the tax code.

I don't think this harsh treament at all. I think it can be a good system. Of course, the loopholes are always going to be a problem, but I hope that many of them are incentives to use corporate profit in ways that benefit the economy.

We clearly need some government oversight. How much oversight is the question of the day. Arguably there's too little oversight in recent years. Conservatives tend to belittle environmental regulations, but I think we need them because businesses will stop at nothing to make a buck. I'm not passing judgment. It's a fact.

There obviously is a need for change in the US, but the current economic system cannot be blamed only on big business. The problems stem from a whole system, a system of living off borrowed money, at a personal level, a corporate level, and a government one. A belief that you can have everything now and worrying about paying for it later.

[lindad_amato]

I have been watching the OWS movement with nostalgia for my youth in the 60's. I'm glad of one thing form these actions and that is the fact that people are once again speaking out. Now, I hope they will speak at the voting locations. We need some major change in the US right now and the only really successful way to get it is to vote and remain politically active.

[giselle]

I agree Linda, its good to see people exercising their right to speak out, this is a freedom that is too easily lost. I hope Occupy Wallstreet focuses on regulation of the investment banking industry and helps push government to take action. Action in this area would likely prompt improved regulation and policy in other sectors of the economy too. It would be a shame if the protests lack a specific focus and end up taking on everything from poverty to world peace because this will get nowhere. The message will be lost on the public and on the policy makers and we'll be no further ahead.

[President Camacho]

I love the sentiment but when you elect leaders that can and will ignore you once they have secured their position... what is the point in voting????? It just seems absurd to me and it should to you, too.

As to the protestors not having a specific purpose (you said focus but the purpose or reason behind their gathering is what's important): They all want to be heard.

As to the 60's... aren't the people who went through the "60's" in power right now?!?!?!?

[Chris OConnor]

Please watch this entire video. I know many of you will argue that the people interviewed aren't really representative of the majority of Occupy Wall St. people, but they are a huge percentage from what I have seen in a dozen videos from different sources.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da1_1318884920

And here is Howard Stern's expose

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=613_1318889087

It seems movements like this would do a hell of a lot more good if they weren't free-for-alls for the unemployed and unemployable.

[Interbane]

If the corporation decides to expand operations because of increased profits that would mean more jobs.

If a corporation decides to expand operations, it must have sufficient demand to warrant the expansion. Profits do not drive job growth. Demand drives it. If a corporation has high demand but not enough production, and needs profits to expand, then lack of profit would limit expansion thus job growth. In that case, trim some fat off the paychecks at the top. That will never happen, but such overpaid executives are exactly the class of "wealthy" who are making more and more money every year, pulling far ahead of the average American.

There obviously is a need for change in the US, but the current economic system cannot be blamed only on big business. The problems stem from a whole system, a system of living off borrowed money, at a personal level, a corporate level, and a government one. A belief that you can have everything now and worrying about paying for it later.

The "system" you're referring to is human psychology. Teach every young adult in this country how to be fiscally responsible, and how to identify and resist the endless number of temptations around them that would be detrimental to their financial health. It would take nearly a 4 year degree to get education of the public to a point where it's sustainable(with respect to responsible personal finances.) I say that in a rough sense, such as that we all get perhaps 2 years worth of training just from our parents, living life.

The point is, rather than educate every single citizen, why not regulate the businesses so they don't take advantage of others? How is a bank justified in lending a ton of money to someone who obviously can't make the payment? Who is the burden of responsibility on? The individual is obviously an idiot, but we can't go through America and kill all the idiots, and new idiots will always be born. I've been an idiot in the past, but in my defense the rules and payment options were not clear at all. In hindsight, I'm truly pissed that no one informed me of what was happening. I feel cheated, and blame the bank for it's greed and the government for it's uncaring complacency.

You can't dangle a carrot at the end of a stick and not expect it to lure a few souls. The methods must be regulated, because all the education in the world won't change human nature. There will be things we are lured to, and if that lure is a trap, it's the government's responsibility to disarm it. I know it can't catch them all, but there is no excuse to overlook some of the traps I've fallen into recently.

I'm more afraid of taking out a loan due to mistrust of the banking system than of worry about not being able to pay. I know as soon as I sign that paper, some fine print I missed will jump out and kick me in the teeth. I want a third party agency regulating the people I do business with, because I sure as hell can't.