The Mything Link

[stahrwe]

For those questioning Lewis' militant atheism I suggest you check out page 65 of Lewis' Surprised By Joy.

Lewis felt that the coldness of the world and the presence of evil was evidence that there was no God. A sentiment I have run into chronically among atheists. It turned him against Christianity.

Additional information regarding Lewis' militant atheism is available in the following sources:

Manlove, Colin, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Patterning of a Fantastic World (1993).
Schakel, Peter J., Reading with the Heart: The Way into Narnia (1979).
Wilson, A. N., C. S. Lewis: A Biography (1990).

[DWill]

The only reason I asked about "militant" in the first place was simply to establish the beginning point of his conversion. To me, the adjective implies certain stances and actions, probably going beyond just being a non-believer. Dawkins is, of course, often called a militant atheist. I wondered if Lewis, in writings or letters, shows up as an anti-theist, which he'd need to do to merit the "militant" tag. Thanks for the references.

[youkrst]

I read the transcript but I don't know what aspect of it anybody feels like discussing.

I'll go read it again and see if anything stands out to me.

[youkrst]

Tolkien: “Oh, Jack, myths are not lies! In fact, they are the very opposite of a lie. Myths convey the essential truth, the primal reality of life itself.”

precisely, myths are not lies they are metaphors, read literally a stitch in time saves nine is preposterous, where would we get such a needle? but read metaphorically, such a valuable lesson.

so like a pearl in the oyster, so the metaphorical truth in the myth, and we ourselves become the oyster in which the pearl forms, the mary in which the christ gestates.

Tolkien: “Most emphatically not! Jack, the four walls of materialism are the four walls of a prison, and the materialists are our jailers! Don’t you see? They’ve put us in a prison, a prison of four walls. They don’t want us to see what’s beyond those walls. They don’t want us to discover what lies outside their narrow philosophy. Worse than that, they think that any attempt to escape the prison is an act of treason.”

this bit reminded me of plato's cave metaphor. i have always loved songs about a jailbreak.

Myths allow us to escape from the prison.

that has been my experience. however when literalised they make the prison far worse. still, always darkest before the dawn they say.

Tolkien: “But don’t you see? It isn’t my story; it’s His story. You’re acting as though Christianity is one myth among many; it’s not. It’s the true myth! Christianity really happened! Jesus really existed, so did Pilate, and yet it is this true story that makes sense of all the other stories. It is the archetype. It is the story in which all the other stories have their source, and the story to which all the other stories point.

oh dear! he sure rolled it there. THE ONE TRUE MYTH my arse, ALL myth is metaphor, but metaphor for what? that is the question.

Tolkien: ... And in my own life it has led me from darkness to Light.”

i could say the same, first plunged into the darkness of the grave, then lifted up in a glorious resurrection. death and resurrection is such a phenomenal metaphor for the experience of life.

A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading.

the same might be said for the young christian,

overall i got the feeling that they were trying to turn the Tolkein Lewis relationship into a cheap chic tract, kind of prostituting two great men into a christian "you better get saved" spiel.

especially in bits like this

Creation. And to reject this leads either to darkness or to wrath.

yes these are clearly the alternatives.... NOT!

overall though i was glad enough of the read, especially seeing as how i am no longer so susceptible to evangelistic psychology...ie. you dont know who you are so you better submit to Jesus or you'll...what was it.... be lead to darkness or to wrath... or literal hellfire...

[DWill]

The reason I didn't want to make a big deal of the conversation was to avoid more of the bad feelings that usually result when people state their disagreements on metaphysics. Tolkien's premise is still based on faith, no matter how much he exhorts Lewis to think, that is to apply logic. On his part, Lewis seems to have relied on the authority of Tolkien to be persuaded of the truth. In general, the whole argument that has been presented on this thread is an argument from authority. The Hobbit is the greatest book ever (except for the Book?); Tolkien is the supreme master of myth; both Tolkien and Lewis are scholars and artists on a plane way above our own. Therefore we must believe they're right about Christianity.

[Chris OConnor]

Tolkien knows more about the Easter Bunny than anyone else.

Tolkien believes the Easter Bunny is real.

Therefore, the Easter Bunny is real.

Argument from Authority.

[stahrwe]

Chris, it isn't quite that simple or simple minded. At the primal level everything, including science has an undergirding of faith upon which everything else is built. I suggest that you read Tolkien's essays of Fairy Stories and Beowulf to get a better understanding of what he is talking about.

[stahrwe]

I couldn't figure out how to attach two files so here is the Beowulf file.

As per my usual caution, do not dismiss Tokien's ideas too flippantly. You do so at your own peril of embarrassment. CS Lewis was not an ignorant man. His consideration of Tolkien's argument of The Myth of Christianity had a great impact on him but don't let your perspective of Lewis mislead you. You are judging Lewis by what he did after the encounter with Tolkien; when Lewis was an apologist for Christianity; try considering Lewis as a Dawkins confronting Tolkien. What about Tolkien's premise could persuade Dawkins?

[stahrwe]

I will have to address other comments later. I am out of town and have limited time.

[Interbane]

What about Tolkien's premise could persuade Dawkins?

I didn't see Tolkien's premise outlined in the transcript. But if it were, I doubt it would be anything that isn't seen in the modern heated debate.

What matters isn't the drama between the two men(although that offers good content for ancillary discussion). Nor their status, nor their previous or subsequent beliefs. What matters is that piece of information that is the strongest argument for believing, and that piece of information should be examined exclusively. Is that contained in Tolkien's premise?


Most myths have portions of truth, combined with portions of fiction. The truthfulness of a myth does not rest on whether or not people consider it a myth. It rests on how closely the internal story reflects the events that actually happened. Classifying a story as myth cannot give us that information. We must dig into the details, and examine the claims versus what really happened.

Thus, labeling something as a "myth" is a consequence. A consequence of the analysis of internal content of the myth. It's the "conclusion" we come to on whether or not the story is true or false. But with myths, I believe part of the conceptual definition is that they are part true and part fiction.

Most fiction novels today have truths mixed in with them. Easy examples can be found in most of your favorite novels, I'm sure. I know of many fictional characters that the author imbued with a truthful philosophy. The philosophy had come from some other source in the author's life, used and written into the story. But a story containing good wisdom and some truthful events does not mean the entire story is true. There is a vast percentage of modern literature that includes both, and is still unarguably fiction.

There is nothing in the transcript that has any bearing on the truthfulness of the myth of Christ. The best we can do is "presume" there was something in the actual exchange that convinced Lewis. The transcript makes me think less of him after reading it, if he truly did believe myths were purely fictional rather than partially true.