Are You Spiritual?

[Dexter]

Talk about missing the point...

Way to duck the hard questions... again. As I said before, see you in the next thread when you're confused about burden of proof again.

[Interbane]

You are religiously needy. Don't tell us you just aren't wired that way, because you are.

I agree. Even though this tendency has no bearing on whether or not religion is true, it does mean that if religion weren't true, we'd invent one to satiate the need.

I've always thought the religious tendencies of our species were the largest indicator that religion is man-made. It's bloody obvious.

[ant]

You are religiously needy. Don't tell us you just aren't wired that way, because you are.

I agree. Even though this tendency has no bearing on whether or not religion is true, it does mean that if religion weren't true, we'd invent one to satiate the need.

I've always thought the religious tendencies of our species were the largest indicator that religion is man-made. It's bloody obvious.

"Man-made" does not exclude a prior truths. Whatever truths they may be.

You are very anthropocentric, so it seems.

[ant]

Talk about missing the point...

Way to duck the hard questions... again. As I said before, see you in the next thread when you're confused about burden of proof again.

Bullcrap.
You exonerate your atheistic assertions so well you've developed a blind spot the size of Jupiter.

Why not meditate on a chimp? It's more at one with you.
That's a serious question, by the way.

[geo]

It seems to me that we have evolved a sense of awareness of something greater than us. Let's call it a mystical feeling. (I'm purposefully not using the word "spiritual" here because it does have supernatural connotations.)

So we all have this mystical feeling to some degree, some more than others. However, we tend to interpret this feeling differently.

Some people believe this feeling comes from a communion with God. Personally, I think that's a rather nebulous and ultimately unsatisfying explanation. Goddidit is just another way of saying we don't know, isn't it?

I would argue this feeling is something we evolved and can be explained naturalistically even if we don't completely understand it at present. Just to be clear, our lack of knowledge does not constitute evidence for God. Why should that ever be the default answer to gaps in our knowledge?

There's actually quite a lot of compelling evidence that religious belief causes an increase in dopamine levels. Dopamine is our a natural reward system. i.e it makes us feel better. One can easily imagine that religious belief enhanced cooperation and cohesion within groups as an evolutionary adaption.

But ultimately the mystical feeling is just a feeling. What we do with that feeling is up to us.

I happen to believe the love I feel for my wife and children is ultimately natural (chemical-based). This doesn't devalue the experience for me. These feelings are deeply personal and meaningful for me. I don't need to invoke the supernatural to make my feelings more relevant or meaningful.

Indeed, those who interpret their feelings as something that comes from some vague entity—"God"—seems a bit strange to me, but clearly there are many people who prefer this way of thinking. But to say that atheists cannot possible be spiritual seems disingenuous and a bit of a semantic dodge.

Regardless, you can have your word "spiritual" because I think it has way too much baggage anyway. But language does evolve and some day the word may not necessarily have supernatural associations.

We've mentioned Carl Sagan lately. Sagan, who's the one who said "we are made of starstuff," was able to express the beauty and sense of wonder of the universe, invoking that same mystical feeling, but in a rational (and secular) way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECuarAmpK00

[Dexter]

Let's be scientific about this and not metaphysical because it suites your transcendent needs.
You are more "at one" with a Pan Troglodyte than you are with alpha centauri.
You are not a nuclear fusion reactor. You are not 71% hydrogen and 27% helium.
You will not one day collapse with the potential to become a black hole.
Not even close.

You are more "at one" with a chimps DNA.
Recent findings are that even our behavior is similar to that of our cousin, the chimp.

Hilarious. We know you like strawman arguments, but you just have demolished the claim, "I am a star." You were successful.

Indeed, we are like chimps. So what? Are you trying to be a parody of Admiral Wilberforce? At least you've acknowledged evolution. So that's a plus for you, although it might chip away at your belief system of Vague, Generic Deity endowing humans with special characteristics.

[ant]

Let's be scientific about this and not metaphysical because it suites your transcendent needs.
You are more "at one" with a Pan Troglodyte than you are with alpha centauri.
You are not a nuclear fusion reactor. You are not 71% hydrogen and 27% helium.
You will not one day collapse with the potential to become a black hole.
Not even close.

You are more "at one" with a chimps DNA.
Recent findings are that even our behavior is similar to that of our cousin, the chimp.

Hilarious. We know you like strawman arguments, but you just have demolished the claim, "I am a star." You were successful.

Indeed, we are like chimps. So what? Are you trying to be a parody of Admiral Wilberforce? At least you've acknowledged evolution. So that's a plus for you, although it might chip away at your belief system of Vague, Generic Deity endowing humans with special characteristics.

All I'm saying is that you are more like a chimp, and that you probably would release more dopamine if you meditated on that.
Try it and let me know, please.

[Interbane]

"Man-made" does not exclude a prior truths. Whatever truths they may be.

If the truth in question is had through divine revelation, then it is excluded by definition if said truths are man-made. But I wasn't speaking exclusively. If we have a tendency towards spirituality, then supporting beliefs would arise regardless of whether or not they are true. It's in our nature to rationalize.

[Interbane]

You are more "at one" with a Pan Troglodyte than you are with alpha centauri.
You are not a nuclear fusion reactor. You are not 71% hydrogen and 27% helium.
You will not one day collapse with the potential to become a black hole.
Not even close.

To say we're more "at one" is meaningless. It could mean any number of things. Do you mean that a good portion of the matter we're composed of(including the building blocks of DNA) are from stars? This is true, but I feel no attachment to any stars because of it.

Or do you mean we're more "at one" with chimps because we have similar genes? I feel no attachment to them either, because it is the difference that matters, not the similarity. What sets us apart is what makes us special.

All I'm saying is that you are more like a chimp, and that you probably would release more dopamine if you meditated on that.
Try it and let me know, please.

I can't even fathom the point you're trying to make there. Was it silly humor directed at Dexter to antagonize him? I think he's probably more like a human than a chimp, but what do I know.

[Dexter]

I can't even fathom the point you're trying to make there. Was it silly humor directed at Dexter to antagonize him? I think he's probably more like a human than a chimp, but what do I know.

Ant is mocking secular meditation, because like everything secular, it is therefore meaningless.

Presumably if you gave a nod to the Vague Generic Deity (VGD), it would become deeply meaningful.

You have awe and appreciation for science? That's silly! You're just a DNA machine!

You've acknowledged the limitations of science and the possibility of VGD? Congratulations! You've had a profound experience!