Jesus Christ Sun God or Christ Aquarius? Intellectual effort vs. spiritual revelation

[Dexter]

Atheists playing dumb. They can read atheistic astrological ideas just fine, no problem, but have a theist use the same Zodiac symbols, the same astrological and religious lore about them, well, then we see our atheists suddenly dumbed down, confused by the same words and symbols they so eagerly approved when attached to atheist ideas about these theological concepts.

I only know of one atheist that seems to be interested in astrological ideas. And I don't understand what the heck he's talking about either. (Sorry RT)

[Interbane]

glad it's not just me, i tend to start hearing "inna gadda da vida baby" half way through the sentence and it makes more sense, so i drift off into the riff, and then find it difficult to return to the sentence.

I suspected magical eyeball deterrent. I found myself staring at the monitor's power button... odd. I think women in bikini's halfway through each sentence would counteract this effect.

[sonoman]

Interbane, you keep acting like an idiot child armed with a forum monitor badge who thinks playing name-calling games is really cool. Grow up and start addressing the questions you dodged earlier thinking posting cut-and-paste opinions from atheists sites constitutes debate.

Try using your "pareidolia" argument to explain how an atheist goes through a three day religious conversion experience converting him to Christianity without ever reading the Bible prior to the experience or ever being a member of any church? Did I "read" the Face of God in a cloud, see Jesus in a pizza crust?

Or was it "apophenia" which seems to be an atheist slander term upgraded from your schoolyard name-calling but of the same childish behavior that uses slander instead of reasoned argument.

Perhaps it's "agency detection" or "magical thinking" believing spiritual forces are using random material world events to communicate with us.

Actually, that is the case. Archetypes, archetypal personages and events are being acted out in human life dramas, a viewpoint that seems co-existent with spiritual consciousness which as I pointed out, a brain function in which atheist brains are atrophied or otherwise disabled. The vast majority of human beings seem not to share this disability so to make your case that there is no spiritual phenomena behind worldly events you have to prove why evolution goofed and evolved our human brains to process spiritual events.

In short, you're right back at the start of this little tussle with me where you do not answer my questions because you don't have logical answers, only slander, and these totally inadequate atheist propaganda hit pieces that never seemed to have been thought out, like the magical thinking one which as I posted in another thread is the whole basis for human speech communication that uses symbolic language that began with "magical thinking".

[Robert Tulip]

I only know of one atheist that seems to be interested in astrological ideas. And I don't understand what the heck he's talking about either. (Sorry RT)

My longstanding interest in astrology is primarily philosophical, exploring a range of questions such as whether there could be any plausible physical cause for astrological claims, how to design statistical tests, how astrology influenced the origins of Christianity, the cultural tensions between astrology, religion and science, and the physics and symbolism of precession.

The scientific study of astrology presents complicated interdisciplinary empirical research problems, whose study is not helped by the low repute that astrology has among scientists. Philosophically, the cultural politics of astrology is fascinating, since discussing it reminds many people of accidentally stepping on a slug in the garden. I find the hypothesis plausible that a planetary birth chart helps to explain a person's character, but recognise that this claim has no scientific status beyond 'not impossible', or 'psychological poetry'. I may well assume knowledge in some of my comments, and always welcome requests for clarification.

I have noticed that most astrologers are strongly indifferent to scientific standards for research, as are most religious people, preferring instead to assume the truth of claims based on intuition or tradition. For example in this thread we see poetic claims by Sonoman about the planet Saturn for which he has provided no justification, and for which he rejects any criticism as slanderous. No one has slandered Sonoman here, but he has been mocked for his unique incredible style.

This thread is a fine example of the mental disconnect between astrology and science. Sonoman asserts that he is making scientific claims, but when pressed suggests his source is personal visions from God. Unfortunately the track record of such visions is weak.

[Interbane]

For example in this thread we see poetic claims by Sonoman about the planet Saturn for which he has provided no justification, and for which he rejects any criticism as slanderous.

Robert, are you able to give a summarized version of what he believes? It's a genuine request.

[sonoman]

"For example in this thread we see poetic claims by Sonoman about the planet Saturn for which he has provided no justification, and for which he rejects any criticism as slanderous. No one has slandered Sonoman here, but he has been mocked for his unique incredible style."

Robert, what the heck are you talking about with your "poetic claims by Sonoman about the planet Saturn"?

I do hope you are not saying ancient Canaanite/Hebrew religious beliefs in which their name for their Most High God was also their name for the planet Saturn are "poetic claims" because that's what I posted--Canaanite/Hebrew religious beliefs about Saturn. Do I have to do your homework for you and tell you how EL Elyon, God Most High, got His name by being Saturn with Saturn's realm being in the 7th or highest of the seven heavens above the ancient's earth-centered cosmos? Are you calling that "poetic claims". Then you'll have to move on to the whole Jewish religion's commandment to worship their God on Saturn's Day, again, more "poetic claims"? Or are you saying all the ancient Chaldean astrological elements, planets, sun, moon, stars, Zodiac, are Sonoman's "poetic claims"? Your criticism doesn't make much sense so I'm lumping it into the circular file as slander which it is even though you claim not as it fits right in along with Interbane's inability to mount a coherent critique of my astrological information. It seems both of you cannot understand using ancient imagery and icons to communicate information even though most of us know a picture is worth a thousand words. It would help if you stopped playing dumb and addressed the astrological information I present that I didn't make up and you know it as all the information is there sitting in books and websites and even in Acharya's books although she, like you, in the haste to condemn Jesus Christ as just another ancient sun god, missed the importance of the Christ Aquarius/Saturn/God Most High modality that is the root of the whole Messiah/Christ theology.

[Robert Tulip]

For example in this thread we see poetic claims by Sonoman about the planet Saturn for which he has provided no justification, and for which he rejects any criticism as slanderous.

Robert, are you able to give a summarized version of what he believes? It's a genuine request.

I gave such a summary earlier in this thread at http://www.booktalk.org/post114386.html#p114386

The El in Israel, Samuel and Elijah (but not Elron) refers to the planet Saturn, traditional ruler of the zodiac sign of Aquarius. I agree with that.

This Saturn symbolism of El explains why Jesus Christ also symbolises Aquarius. I disagree with that. Pure poetry.

[sonoman]

Saturn was the established Ruler of the Sign of Aquarius in the ancient Near Eastern astrologically based religious conceptions. But it is the Aquarian aspects of Jesus Christ that define Christ as an Aquarian archetype. Look at all the Aquarian Living Waters statements he makes and demonstrations of power over water that he performs, in the Aquarian spiritual linage with the Aquarian water god elements in the stories of Noah, Moses, Jonah, and John the Baptist. You flippant dismissal as "poetic" is not proved by the volume of Aquarian references to be found in the Gospel stories and the whole Bible for that matter.

From Celestial Torah Christianity:

"In the Abrahamic spiritual linage of Noah, Moses, Elijah, and John the Baptist, Jesus Christ also symbolically represents Aquarius as well as the sun in the Gospels. The rains are as important to sustaining humankind as is sunlight.

"Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? “Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, “but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” --John 4:10-14

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.--John 7:37-39

"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
--John 14:2

"And He said to them, Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house which he enters." --Luke 22:10

This last verse is the Gospel's most direct reference to the Sign of Aquarius. In Jesus' time men did not carry water jars. It was considered women's work so this command by Jesus is unusual. In fact, the whole Last Supper scene is not actually a human drama at all but symbolizes the ancient astrological ideas about the sun's yearly travel through the 12 Signs of the Zodiac with Jesus representing both the Sun and Aquarius.

http://biomystic.org/christconnaquarius.htm

[Interbane]

Interbane's inability to mount a coherent critique of my astrological information.

I'll jump in and discuss your views, but there needs to be ground rules. First, list what the claim is that you're trying to get across. No need to support it, just lay it out there plain and simple without embellishment. A short post is all. Robert gave a good example, where El refers to Saturn, etc. I'd take his summary, but I'd rather have it from you.

The second thing I'd ask is that there is no meta-debate. Neither side mentions the other side. The only thing discussed is the information. No insults or ad hominem's from either side. If you believe something is a diversion, you must support that by saying "why" it's a diversion. I won't call you a coincidence worshipper, and you don't go on a tirade about atheists. The ideas under discussion are all that's discussed, nothing more.

[Robert Tulip]

I agree with you that there are Christ Aquarius links in the Gospel, but these Aquarian symbols are solar, not based on the Saturn or Torah framework that you describe.

The Age of Aquarius, just astronomically without any myth or astrology, is defined as the time when the sun's position at the March equinox is in the constellation Aquarius. Based on equal thirty degree precessional ages, and accepting our BC/AD dating as marking the Aries/Pisces cusp, the Age of Aquarius runs from around 2147 AD to 4294 AD.

My view is that the Aquarian water bearer references you cite from the Gospels should be read as an anticipation of this Age of Aquarius as the cosmic marker for the second coming of Jesus Christ. This means that the Gospel authors thought the first coming of Christ was imaginary, as fictional avatar of the Age of Pisces, while the second coming is expected as political, as a king to bring heaven on earth, as avatar of the Age of Aquarius. This vision of time is the basis of texts such as Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

There is no primary link between Aquarius and Saturn in this eschatology of the end of the age, although there are Saturnine themes such as the rod of iron at Rev 2:27. There are abundant Biblical clues, especially around the traditional 7000 year time line, which illustrate that the authors were talking about a solar motif of Christ as ruler of the Age of Aquarius as a millennial vision.