Did the Holocaust really happen? - a serious discussion

[PatrickSMcNally]

I'm sure you believe in some of the above or maybe in UFO's, astral projection, astrology, ESP, reincarnation, telepathy, and other such extraordinary claims. Am I hitting the nail on the head?

You're as far offbase as anyone could ever be. Why should I believe in reincarnation? Why should I believe that it was ever possible to cremate 6000+ bodies on a daily basis at Auschwitz using at most 46 cremation muffles each of which is capable of handling at most one body per hour? They're examples of mysticism. If you want a better example of something close to astrology you might open up Rabbi Benjamin Blech's book THE SECRETS OF HEBREW WORDS to page 214. Blech discusses some ancient Hebrew prophecies of "ye shall return" about returning to Israel and informs that the character "vav" is missing from the correct Hebrew spelling of "ye shall return." He then goes on to explain that in numerological terms the character "vav" has the value of six and that this omission of the character with the value six was a prophecy of the alleged Holocaust. Now that's mysticism akin to UFOs.

In fact as early as 1900 Zionist organizations were carrying the number six million. Go back to the NEW YORK TIMES of June 11, 1900, and read the report on Rabbi Stephen Wise's address from the previous day:

"There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism."

The six million number was being circulated by Zionist groups for some decades before Hitler even came to power. In the context of WWII propaganda that number was converted into the basis for a story of atrocity-mongering. UFO believers might tell you that Wise was seeing the future as a prophet. I'm simply pointing out that Wise made this number up based upon the kind of religious mysticism which Blech finds in the missing "vav" character.

[Daisy]

Wow, this is really deep.

I had heard Holocaust deniers exist, but haven't come across one until now. Aside from that annoying Irani dictator, I mean.

It seems as though I have been fascinated by the horror of the Holocaust since I was a child. I remember choosing it for class projects as early as 4th grade.

I have read and seen so much in my lifetime documenting the events, and had my heart break at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.

The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:

If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome...

Although I suppose PatrickSMcNally and the dictator of Iran will still be unswayed. As unfathomable as this seems to me.

[Chris OConnor]

Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this.

[PatrickSMcNally]

Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this.

Well there's no evidence that gas chambers ever existed, except for delousing chambers used for disinfecting clothes and the like. There were, of course, things similar to the free fire zones in Vietnam. For example, someone walking around outside of certain ghetto areas could be shot down freely without being identified. But gas chambers, no. About one million Jews, though if we allow for a margin of error in statistics it might be as high as 1.5 million, died from all causes in the Second World War, including combat deaths in the Soviet Army and the like. About 300,000 of these occurred within the concentration camp system, with perhaps another 200,000 non-Jews perishing within the areas of the camp.

A simple introduction to some of these issues is given by Germar Rudolf

http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndstats.html

and Jurgen Graf:

http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndGraf.html

Personally I never liked what I'd heard about the US Army doing in Vietnam and doubt that I'd like any other army doing anything similar if I were of a different nationality. But the claims coming from the Holocaust industry have consistently emphasized a marked difference between the alleged Nazi genocide with gas chambers and run of the mill atrocities committed by occupying powers such as the US was in Vietnam. So it's only natural to seek to clarify what precisely upholds this distinction, if anything.

[PatrickSMcNally]

The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:

If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome...

You obviously have not read very much on the subject at all. If you had you'd be aware that such orthodox authors as Leon Poliakov (author of Harvest of Hate) have maintained that the one single place where the Third Reich failed to produce any documentation was on the "campaign to exterminate the Jews... No document remains, perhaps none has ever existed..."

It has been acknowledged for several decades that no documents existed which clearly described a methodical plan to exterminate Jews. Instead the claim, from the orthodox authors, not the revisionists, has been that a code language was used throughout all documents of the Third Reich and that consequently the documents all speak of "evacuation of the Jews," "eastern settlements" and the like, without ever mentioning gas chambers, but that this is all a code language.

Regarding the opening of more documentary archives, I've listened to the reports of such and haven't heard anything which even remotely suggests that these documents have anything to support the claims of either gas chambers or an ethnic extermination plan. The reports which I've encountered that describe something of content about what is in the archives only point to the existence of a police state where neighbors could spy on each other, as if that's news. Not a single report has yet suggested that any new documentation in these archives will alter the judgment which Leon Poliakov made decades ago that no documentation exists which supports the story of an attempted extermination of Jews.

[psyops]

"Revisionism" IS history. Without "revisionism", empirical history would be impossible. It is through the empirical practice of "revisionism" that Holocaust historians at Yad Vashem have revised the number of Auschwitz dead from their 1960's figure of four million, down to the 1.2 million figure they advocate today. This stellar example of Holocaust revisionism was affected because over half a century, a preponderance of emerging historical evidence supported the lower figure, thus Holocaust historians revised their estimate of the number of people murdered in Auschwitz by nearly 3 million. These Jewish Holocaust historians at Israel's national Holocaust museum aren't "Nazis" or "anti-Semitic rednecks", nor are they some sinister "hate group" because they engage in the empirical practice of Holocaust revisionism; they're simply professional historians doing what historians do. Please try and remember that "revisionism" is as indispensable an empirical tool to the professional historian as is the scientific method to a chemist or physiologist.

[Chris OConnor]

psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?"

[psyops]

psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?"

Chris OConner, are you also Jethro Bodine?

[Chris OConnor]

My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person?

[psyops]

My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person?

No.