Confessions Of An Obsessive Reader

[jales4]

That is the tennet that sticks in my throat and I can't swallow. That some are chosen.......means that others are rejected.....

There is a futility to that, isn't there? It is a fine thing to believe if you believe you are someone who God has chosen. But if God has chosen that you are going to be human scum, and are doomed to hell.... well, then, that would be a bit of a challenge, wouldn't it?

I just can't seem to wrap my head around how one would live day to day life, thinking that everything that happens is already determined.

With a Calvanistic viewpoint, does God choose what happens to each person (like Abigail's author analogy) or can he just see into the future so already knows what has happened before it does?

Does the biblical quote about some being chosen clearly spell out that they are chosen in advance?

Jan.

[Ophelia]

Penelope wrote:
That is the tennet that sticks in my throat and I can't swallow. That some are chosen.......means that others are rejected.....

Maybe this will sound simplistic but what I understood from my College years was that this was not a problem for Calvinists because each of them believed that they had been chosen, either as an individual or as a member of a group (The chosen ones).
If they had not been chosen they wouldn't know until they died, so this would not affect their lives.

If , to take an over-simplistic example, not being chosen was a reality or a possibility only for a group I'll call Hindus, the situation would not be very hard on anybody, as the Hindus would neither know nor care about predestination, having their own set of beliefs.

[Penelope]

There was a long review with excerpts of the Jacobs book in our magazine last week.

Being Jewish though - he observed the dietry laws and the stoning of adulterers was covered too (humorously).

However, when it came to the New Testament he seemed to ignore Jesus's teaching that no food was unclean and that we could eat everything. Also ignored the fact that Jesus did not condone the stoning of adulterers.

I was a bit disappointed.

[evendeathmaydie]

Ophelia is right, in a Calvinist world view, no one really knows if they are chosen ("elected" is the word generally used) or not. At least, I don't think so. I always wondered about that old hymn "Blessed Assurance,":doze: and whether it was really Biblical or just something that came along with the idealistic, American way of seeing things.
I don't think we really can know, because although I have grown up in a Christian family and have "prayed the prayer" for salvation, and try to please God, I know that I haven't really given myself heart and soul to Him like the Bible spells out. Maybe I'm not one of the elect. I honestly don't know. The Bible also says that at the day of judgment many will say "Lord, Lord," and Jesus will say "I never knew you."
I wonder if that will be me? If it is, I still feel that I do have a blessed assurance that my life counted for something. Like in "It's a Wonderful Life," if I had never been born, God's perfect plan for the world wouldn't have been the same.
So yes, it is VERY hard to live with the thought that some --most, actually-- are "unchosen." I actually wrote a poem, by that title, on the subject, during a time of great spiritual and mental struggle in my life. I won't post it unless you want me to, because it basically just says what I've been saying here.
The point is, I've had to change my thinking to see the world as belonging to God, and Him being in control. What seems good to me is very likely not part of God's truly good plan. (God is the only good. Anything not of God is evil.) In the Westminster catechism, the first question is "What is the chief end of man?" the reply is "To bring glory to God and to enjoy him forever." I make it my mission to put all the glory completely on God. It's somehow freeing to think that everything I do is due to God's amazing and fabulous power. As a person who naturally struggles with pride and boasting, it has freed me to think that way, and I thank the Holy Spirit often for giving me this view of things.
I still serve myself and my own lusts a lot. One thing that I know I love more than God is the tv show Stargate:oops: and I'm also guilty of loving books way too much, as is obvious. I sometimes think, what if someone just outright gave me the choice between living a bookless, Stargate-less existence with only God, or giving up my commitment to Him completely and wasting my life on these fleeting pleasures that entertain at the moment but don't satisfy the real needs of my soul. Then I think, that's what's happening right now, and I'm making the wrong choices.
That is sort of like free will, but I don't think it's the same as some people think. After all, God is in control, and has already planned that I would waste much of every day watching tv and reading books, and I know he will use it for good somehow. But as I am a sentient being with a mind and a will, it is my duty to give up that will to God's perfect will and obey Him. Only then will my life be taking the perfect path.
It's complicated, and like I said before, I am so young and don't really know what I'm talking about, but that's how I see things right now. There are some things I can't explain (like free will! I make myself almost sick trying to figure out where that fits in, and no one can tell me. Wah! ) Oh well, it helps to just trust in God and not worry too much about the questions sometimes. Things happen in God's time, not ours. It's all cool.
Now onto a tougher subject. I think that some people should be judged for their "sexual preference." I know, I could probably get kicked off the site for saying that. However, I have to say what I believe.
What about people whose sexual preference is rape? That's illegal, for obvious reasons. Homosexuality used to be, too. The Bible says that the natural state is for a man to leave his parents and cleave unto his wife. That is what is known as a Creation Commandment, and it is just as important if not more important than the Ten Commandments. A perversion of nature is a slight against the natural order that God created, and it is like a direct insult to God.
Homosexuality being okay in this day and age is a sign of the times. It was a sign in Sodom and Gommorha and it was a sign in the Greek and Roman empires.
America is going to die of immorality, and the sexual revolution is the flames that it is going down in.
I get most of this from my dad and his buddies from church who discuss current events. Frankly, I'm not very passionate about such things. I tend not to look at the present with thoughts for the future, I'm just not made to be farsighted like that. However, it is scary to think about what America will be in twenty years, or even ten, if things keep going the way they have been.
Homosexuality is not a joke. It's a sin. It's not something that people can't help. We all at some time in our lives feel a sinful urge to do something perverse (by which I mean, against the natural order of creation, against God's will) that doesn't mean we have to sin. With God's help, we can overcome temptation.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I can't judge anyone for being sinful, because I have sinned myself. We're all sinners. That doesn't mean I can joke around and pretend that it's okay to do something wrong. Just because something is fun or cool doesn't mean it's okay to do it even though it's wrong. All sin is fun while you're doing it, but it has eternal consequences. So all in love, I can say to any homosexuals, "this is sin. God can save you from it." Whether He will or not is up to Him. All I can do is speak the truth.

Once again, sorry for the super long post, and thank you guys for reading and responding.

[Penelope]

Jales said:

Does the biblical quote about some being chosen clearly spell out that they are chosen in advance?


Yes Jales, it does. I am pretty sure it is in Romans Ch.12. In no uncertain terms, it says that God 'foreknows' those whom he has chosen.


I think we need to remember that the Bible is a collection of books, bound together; some are history, some are poetry, some are prophetic. Written all at different times and chosen to be included in our Bible by a 'Committee'. The Roman Catholic Doue bible has extra books - called the Apocrypha - (I was always really miffed about this as a teenager). Why have they got extra books?

Abegail: It is interesting to read what you say about Homosexual practices. People are not usually so forthright these days and it is refreshing to hear it even if we disagree. We cannot exchange ideas and learn from one another if we are afraid to say what we mean can we?

I don't know what it feels like to have those kind of sexual preferences so I don't think it is right for me to judge. As you say, some preferences like paedophelia are obviously wrong. I think I would accept varyiant behaviour if it were between consenting adults, because I think it is only unacceptable if one of the people is not consenting.......then it is really about as wrong and wicked as anything can be, in my book.

I remember to parable of the good Samaritan though, where Jesus tells us that the Samaritan didn't say, 'Oh you silly man, why did you travel alone through these robber-infested mountains, it's your own fault?' He just helped him..
Because he was his neighbour, and that is what the 'Boss' says we must do.

[evendeathmaydie]

Penelope, that is the problem with the homosexual issue today, not to mention all other "grey" issues. People think "as long as it's not hurting anyone, we can't tell people not to do it."
Sin always hurts someone.
When we sin, the Bible says (and I'm not sure where this passage is) that we crucify Christ again. Every little white lie, every selfish little thought, everything that is not within God's perfection, is a sin, and Jesus died for those sins.

Let me repeat, because there isn't enough emphasis two thousand years after the fact:

HE DIED.

Ouch.

[jales4]

Abegail,

Does the bible say that some sins are worse than others? (I know the Catholic church has venial and carnal sins - but don't know if this is biblical).

If a sin is a sin, wouldn't gluttony and homosexuality have the same consequences? But no church seems to condemn overweight people.

Some churches have changed their teachings to accept homosexuality. I disagree with this - if the Bible is divine, then how can you change it?

But I also disagree with the church saying 'this sin is acceptable here, but this one is not'.

I read the book What Would Jesus Do. It was a good read. People do pick and choose their sins - but ones that they are immune from (no homosexual desires) they feel free to condemn.

Also about homosexuality - do you think it is right to expect a person to live a loveless, sexless life, and deny themselves a relationship that hurts no one? (You said homosexuality hurts others. I cannot think of how, and would like some examples, please). The other option you offer homosexuals is to marry someone from the opposite sex. Do you think such a marriage would be fair to the other person? Have any chance of being successful?

I used to be very homophobic. Then we got new neighbours with a son. From about the age of 5 it became evident that he was very feminine. He struggled all through school with the hurtful comments and things other people did to him. I don't think he had any more choice than a person with a broken leg has to limp. He had good parents and siblings, who just let him be who he was.

Put yourself in his shoes. Or, put yourself in a parents shoes - what will you do if you have a child like him? Condemn him?

This is a good discussion, I hope I haven't come off to strong - I'd really like to hear what others have to say.

Jan.

[Penelope]

Dear Abegail (and Audrey)

I have been thinking about you all afternoon. And I am so glad that you have got back to me. (I am now saying, 'Thank you Lord').

I am so fond of you....because I think, to some extent, I have been where you are.

It is so hard in the circumstances of today's world - to know what is right. I would never advocate that you go against the teachings of your 'Christian' family. It is admirable that your parents have instilled in you a sense of what matters. I honestly admire them, being a parent of three adults myself and a grandmother of a six year old.

However, I feel that I want to describe to you (and Audrey) that when I found it difficult to accept 'The Bible' what I was taught to refer to always as 'The Holy Bible' - then I prayed....and came to the conclusion that the Bible, The Holy Bible, is not intellectually understood, but spiritually discerned.

For instance....It does say in the OT that, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' and that lead to a lot of dotty old women to have been tortured and burned at the stake......I know....yes, I know, that Jesus would not have advocated that.

The Old Testament is full of laws and rules which are so complex that they are impossible to keep. Jesus - came out of the Jews...who had all of these laws...and said, 'I am the new wine.....you cannot put new wine into old bottles.....or the bottles....will burst'.

He simplified all of the laws and said....love God (well I can't love a God who gives us impossible laws). And love your neighbour as yourself. So we must love ourselves.....not feel guilty and unclean...just feel loved and then we can stop judging and love our fellow man.

We must first learn to love ourselves....then we can know how to love our neighbours.

God can only use love. The devil can only use hatred. Let us love ourselves and accept ourselves....people are wonderful.

I wish I had talked more about Jesus.....and less about the liturgy....and what 'The Bible' says.

Love from Penny....this is not meant to be a sermon....just a letter from the heart.

[Audrey]

First of all, I love hearing about what everyone thinks along these topics, just throwing that out there.

Penelope-
My family did bring me up in a christian home and it's what I am used to. Serving the 'boss' is all that I was used to, until about last year. Drifting away from him, being pushed away from the church. Is that really how things are supposed to be? I was sure that God said that we must love everyone. This was very difficult, then I left for college. I am slowly getting back to studying God, but my world is being shaken up. You have been talking about the bible as a set of books, some historical, some poetry, etc. Before my Introduction to Christianity class this semester, I had never know about all of this. All of the "choosing" of books. I am suffering with these concepts a little bit. How do these people know what books should or shouldn't be in the bible. So, I can connect with your ideas about this. Yet, somehow out of all of this, I still retreat from 'him'. I fell into a period where I tried to forget him and go my own way, a little bit of rebellion and needless to say that was not the best idea. Now dealing with the concept of obeying the laws. I know it is impossible for me to keep to every single one of the laws that God has set out for me. I can only hope and pray that he will not give up in forgiving me. Yet sometimes I wonder if I'm really worth it, to keep forgiving. I know he get frustrated. I mean I get frustrated forgiving my younger sister for all of the things she has done and sometimes I don't want to forgive her at all. Eventhough I cannot keep to all the rules, I try my hardest to keep to him. I believe he placed these rules out to the world to show how to be like him. With the 'witch' statement about the OT, I don't want to say that we disregard the OT, but times change. That's about the only idea I have about that one. Only God knows, which laws we should keep from the OT.
I have this deep notion that deep down people are good. This may be because I am still young and naive, but I want to believe people are good. It is true sometimes I deal with people who aren't so nice, but I pray and hold out hope. Thinking people are naturally good helps me to love them more. I spend my days finding ways to love people and show them that I care, much of the time this love goes unappreciated and at the end of the day I wonder why I focus so much time and effort on loving people But then there is that moment when you get a smile back, a thank you, a little bit of encouragement and appreciation and I can't live without that.

Jales-
The answer to your question is No. No sin is worse than other sin. All sins are the same. I believe that is the fault of todays churches in making this hierarchial list of sins from worse (homosexuality) to least worse (a little white lie). A murder is the same degree of sin as disobeying authorities. Our churches today are more focused on pointing out the bad of the world than focusing on how to love the world and show them the ultimate love of God. Gluttony and homosexuality are the same degree of sin. They both will be presented to God on judgement day (according to my religion). I believe Jesus' message was to love everyone, that excludes no one even homosexuals. You wouldn't love a person with tattoos because they have a different idea about their body than you do (I make this comparison because in the bible, God says that 'your body is a temple'.) I have many problems with the church and their say so in the consequences of sin or the acceptablity of sin is something I ignore. The church is supposed to be a place of learning and support, yet I have only found it a source of pessimism and mal-teachings. All I have to say about homosexuality, is LOVE just as you would love anyone else.

[Penelope]

Hello Audrey - I have been thinking about your last post.

There is a lot in the Bible that I don't trust.....but there is a lot of wisdom. I am told I can't pick and choose which bits of the Bible I believe or agree with. Well, I say, Who Says I can't? I jolly well can pick and choose - otherwise I would just focus on the disagreed items and throw the lot away.....which would be a shame. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater. God gave us brains and intellect and I think we are expected to use them.

I feel the same about Churches - they are only as good as the people who go there - the Vicar, or leader being most influencial. After all, a Church is people, not a building.

The only Church I have any patience with since I grew old and grumpy is the Salvation Army - because in this Country, if people are destitute or in dire trouble, financially or spiritually - that is where they go to ask for help. They don't go and knock on the Vicar's door do they? (I should tell you that I was born and brought up in the Church of England - I have a lot to thank them for - because I went to a CofE school too - and, on the whole, it was a good place to grow.) But never-the-less, they seem to do a lot of talking and huffing and puffing about whether their should be women priests or homosexual vicars........and in the meantime....people are starving to death in other parts of the world. People are homeless and destitute in this country.......I just felt that God, said to me, Penny, stop theorising about what I am and what I'm like.....and just get on and do it. Jesus just said, 'If you love me - feed my sheep' that is all He asked. He went on to explain that his sheep were, prisoners, hungry and thirsty people. So that is that as far as I am concerned.

So I lend a hand at the Salvation Army - but I don't belong to it and I lend a hand at Oxfam etc....but I don't belong to it.......I know to whom I belong.....and if I am mean, selfish, or grumpy.....or even cruel.....He lets me know. Not some person with a degree in pointing the finger.

Lovely to hear from you......God Bless.