What are you reading right now...

[sabrinassabrina]

1984 By George Orwell. I must say this was a brilliant book that had me thinking about it even when it wasn't in my hand. After I finished the book, I sat down and pondered it's true meaning. I came to the conclusion that Winston was no better than the political party, in the sense that he was willing to commit abominable acts for what he considered noble reasons, but the political party had their reasons for torturing Winston into submission.
Winston Knew what he didn't like about the Party, but he didn't know why he didn't like it. He had no real purpose or defined reason as to why he ought to hate their chosen method of life. It was as though he was just being a stubborn self reliant guy, that just wanted to rebel. Winston seemed to believe in himself, believe in his own strength, so when he was challenged by the political party under severe conditions he lost strength and complied with them eventually.
At the End of the Book, Winston accepts the fact that he is just like the rest of the political party, that he has no real reasons for thinking otherwise, and that he was just a stubborn rebellious type of a man, and that his beliefs were no better than Big Brothers Idea. He had just wanted to resist it, but not understanding fully as to why.
Perhaps if Winston had defined why he wanted to resist the party he might have withstood under pressure, but seeing as he was just as perverse as the rest of the world he had to comply.
Think about why you want to do things in life, define the purpose, don't believe in yourself, and make sure your motives are pure.
Thats the message I ultimately got from the book.
Over and out.

[President Camacho]

I agree that Winston committed abominable acts but he was the product of Big Brother's brain washing and desensitizing. His job was to fabricate lies. He was a part of Big Brother and partly responsible for its evils. But he slowly woke up towards the end. He began to feel love. He began to question BB and he began to want truth. He was to blame but he was the undying spark of humanity and individualism that the government could not tolerate.

I'll write more later

[sabrinassabrina]

Winston Asked questions, he disagreed with their ways, he knew WHAT he disagreed with, but WHY he disagreed, he didn't seem to know. He couldn't define it to himself, that's how he got brainwashed in the end. If he had defined his motive for disagreeing, and if it had been pure and true, nothing, not even torture could change his mindset or in fact the truth. That's why I'm forced to conclude that he wasn't really sure about what he believed in, was just stubborn and rebellious at heart, part of his character, but ultimately, no better off than the rest of the world. I guess things would have worked out differently if he had solid truth to stand on, apart from his own beliefs of how the world ought to work.
Yeah do write more, curious to see what you have to say. Interesting book, Just finished it today. I might even have more ideas about it by tomorrow.

[President Camacho]

Reread where Newspeak is being described. Why is the government developing Newspeak? For what purpose would you say?

Did you learn what was right and what was wrong? Or were you born knowing?

Owning people as property wasn't such a bad thing at one time. If you grew up owning slaves it probably would cross your mind that it was wrong because mentally you'd put yourself in your slaves position. But if you were forced to own them on threat of death and they made your life easy.... would you speak up?

If one day you had such a strong feeling that owning other people and forcing them to do your bidding was just not right... would you just be a rebellious person?

Maybe to everyone else but to me you'd be truth emerging.

[sabrinassabrina]

Newspeak was involved in creating a new language so as to abolish the old language as much as possible. So bad became ungood, and very good became goodplus. That's what I can recall from memory, although I have just finished the book today so the whole extent of the contents has not fully sunk in as of yet.
We must remember this is a work of fiction which deals with issues that are important to a lot of people, but at the same time, it's just a story.
Newspeak was used in the book as a way of forcing people to think in a new way, a way that they had designed them to think.
As for right and wrong, I believe I was born knowing. As a child I remember doing a few things that my parents never found out about, but of the which really bothered me. No-one told me how to feel, or respond, because no-one knew but me. So it was merely an act of conscience.
I wouldn't say I agree with people owning other people against their wishes. In fact I wouldn't say I would agree with much of the way the political party behaved. But the real thing I'm getting at is, where is the truth. Orwell left us all hanging, because where is the solution to all this madness.
Is it that your pure, and your motives are pure, and your is rebellion based on actual truth and you have a solid ground to stand on, or you will be tortured whilst you are still trying to figure out why you resist their ideas in the first place.
I thought the book was trying to relay a message to us all. If we need to take a stand on anything in life, we should make sure we know why we are taking a stand, we should be sure it's pure in its motive and not self seeking. We should be sure that we the accusers don't then become the accused. As Winston became the accused when he was shown a clip of himself agreeing to commit all sorts of evil acts for the brotherhood.
I think that is why, at the end of the book he concludes that he should accept that he too is evil like the rest of them, but he just had a harder time accepting it.
Leaving us to believe, he was on the right track at the start, but he never found the truth, or should I say the answer.
Take it easy on me though, because I just finished this book today. Really enjoyed the read.

[President Camacho]

"Newspeak was used in the book as a way of forcing people to think in a new way, a way that they had designed them to think."

Exactly!!! And it also served to limit thought. It was thought control.

You felt you did something wrong. But there's no telling whether it was because you knew it was wrong from experience or because a little angel on your shoulder told you it wasn't right.

You eat meat? - if you were constantly showed cows being slaughtered and people weeping and heard emotional music being played in the background while all this was happening - you'd probably have some horrible thoughts when eating meat. It may even turn you off completely from it. What if on top of that, none of your friends ate meat. Would you eat another human being? Why not? It's meat, right?

Winston was conditioned in this way. I don't think you know how powerful the control BB had over people.

Orwell, I don't think but I could be wrong here, didn't leave us hanging merely because this story has no happy ending. It does have a catharsis but one in which the reader is cleansed in tragedy. The question whether Winston or BB will triumph IS answered. BB wins. There is a conclusion.

You make a good point about the accuser becoming the accused. I liked that paragraph! Winston was just learning how to be human. I think he can be forgiven here. He learned his lesson as soon as he heard the tape, I think.

Now let me ask you a question... What did you think when Winston first swore to commit if necessary, those acts of violence in the name of the cause? Were you proud of his conviction or shocked?

He comes to love BB, to love evil, because he's been worn down Sabrina. He's been baptized in pure evil. He lives in hell, is surrounded by demons, and his god is Satan whether he likes it or not. His only salvation, friend, and hope - someone he admired - tortured him until he was an inch from death. He was then forced to sell his own soul to save his head from being eaten by rats. He held out as long as he could before he cracked. This doesn't make you feel for him? His efforts!!!!!!

[Erron]

The Alienist by Caleb Carr. I promised a friend I would read this...ummm...fifteen years ago. When it was still in hardback. sigh It is never too late to fulfill a promise I guess. I just started it, so no feedback yet.

[sabrinassabrina]

When I first read the part where he agreed to do all sorts of wicked things to people and even harm children if necessary, for what he considered good reasons, I must say I was taken aback
and rather shocked by his readiness to do anything for his beliefs, of the which turned out to be nothing more than a belief in himself.
Winston was on the right track, but he lost the battle. Why did he lose the battle? Why did Orwell allow him to lose the Battle? What do you think Orwell was trying to tell us by allowing his main character become defeated? Don't you think he was telling us something?
Throughout the Book, Orwell demonstrated his dislike of all these Parties, but somehow, he managed to demonstrate the stupidity of having a belief that can be destroyed with fear or terror.
Surely, this guy should have died at the hand of rats if he really believed in Love?
If he truly Loved Julia, there is no way he would beg for them to allow her to face the rats in his place.
If he loved her he would have submitted to the rats and proved to us all that he really did love Julia and that love was the answer to the problem.
Neither Love, Nor beliefs, nor strength or courage will save one from these evils.
So if this is true, what is it that will enable people to prevail under all these extreme conditions?

[President Camacho]

I don't think it's possible for a single person to prevail under those conditions. The thought police would have just kept on working on getting him to crack until he did.

It would take a group of people. Winston was ready to sacrifice his life - he just wasn't ready to have his eyes eaten out of his head by rats. I think that's understandable.


I think he was driving home the point that once things get out of control like that it's nearly impossible for it to be corrected. His point is made more powerful by having BB win. It makes BB more of a boogie man. The machine was able to stomp out an average Joe like myself without blinking an eye. Did you notice that BB wasn't stagnate, either? The government was constantly improving itself to better control people. There was no end. Once the cycle started it was self perpetuating. It's on auto pilot. People destroying people for an idea and no one person able to stop it because they'd just get killed. Not even a large group of people could stop it. It would take a miracle! I think the author wanted to overwhelm the reader with a feeling of hopelessness.


If he loved her he would haven't of tried to throw Julia under the bus. I agree with you partially but this was a necessary breaking point for Winston and a way to express to the reader how BB stole a man's dignity and sense of right and wrong. Winston knew why he was being tortured. They wanted him to give up Julia. He knew that. Julia was the only thing he didn't betray to BB until the rat seen. He was attached to her but sadly his fear overcame his love for her. No, he wasn't strong enough to allow rats to eat his eyeballs... what a pansy, right?

To keep things in perspective, this is a society which is accustomed to selling each other down the river. They're used to backstabbing people. There isn't anything wrong in doing it. They're taught to do so when they're children. Parents are very proud of their children when they manage to get someone killed by the thought police.

[sabrinassabrina]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the book, it is really interesting to see how different people reading the same book can come to different conclusions.
Great book, One of the which will occupy my mind for a very Long time!