Abortion

[Kostya]

Quote:are you aware of your subtle semantic slanders?I would love to take a credit for those, but because I am not necessarily sure what exactly you are referring to I would have to say "not really".Quote:why is the ability to feel pain significant.Perhaps the argument can be made that inflicting of pain on other being could be immoral.Quote:Are you implying that its ok to kill someone so long as its painless?No. Quote:Do you believe that the killing of a newborn should be allowed, or that killing chimps should be prohibited?Presented with this choice I would lean towards prohibition of killing of chimps.Quote:are you suggesting that children should not be considered as valuable as fully grown adults?I am saying that they ARE not valued or treated the same as fully grown adults.Quote:The difference between a sperm/egg and a zygote is that the zygote is a new distinct genetic entity.Thanks. Edited by: Kostya at: 3/9/04 7:34 pm

[Laser Harbor]

Pro-choice; all the way.

[Trish]

My question is if abortion is murder and if we made it illegal, therefore making it a crime... what punishment is appropriate? Should the woman seeking one be charged with first degree (premeditated) homocide and if convicted recieve a 25 to life sentence? Or at the very least conspiracy to commit homocide which has a similar sentence? I asked my boyfriend's father this question because he said that he only votes based on 2 issues: which candidate is pro-gun and pro-life. He would not go as far as to say that women should be thrown in prison for 25 years for having an abortion. He indicated it was really more the doctors who were committing the crime. That I think is sexist and insulting presumption that pregnant women are in a diminished mental and emotional capacity and not capable of being fully responsible for their decisions. But shouldn't the fact that he doesn't think the punishment for terminating a fetus should be the same as shooting another person mean something? Wether he realizes it or not he's made a status distinction between the two "victims." If he truly believed that a fetus was equal to any born human being then shouldn't the sentence be the same for any planned, intellegently guided termination of life? It's not that I don't understand some of the pro-life arguments. One need not be religious necessarily to be anti-abortion and in general caring for human life is noble. But I think Chris is right in that nature disposes of new life all the time and considering the high infant mortality rate for most of human history until the intervention of modern medicine God does not seem to give a fig about babies either. All that matters it seems that the fetus is born period. Who raises the child if the parent has to work 2-3 jobs just to put food on the table? Who educates the child when we have state and local politicians that always cut school funding first? It's hard to justify the claim of desiring a life-affirming society when everything else we do is counter to properly caring for children. I just think the de-valuing of human life begins when more children are brought into the world than can be raised with love and respect, not by the absence of unwanted children.

[Dr Paradise]

It has been my observation that when an animal of any order, refuses to care for an infant or pushes it out of the nest, that infant is defective. I am referring to the comment that nature disposes of new life. I have taken many of these newborns abandoned by the parents and raised them regardless of a defective wing or a short leg. I have pictures to prove it. My Chinese geese are prone to genetic defects due to occasional inbreeding. I have raised these little guys to full fledged barnyard animals and other than a different look, they contribute just about as well as the others. When I lived in Illinois in the sixties, I would make my rounds of the dairies and get the new born calves abandoned by the parent and then raise them just like they were one of the family. Yes, I am sure nature provides for a control over deformities, but abortion isn't on the list. I am not against abortion or for it, but that doesn't mean I can see the good of destroying a life so that someone might not have to take the responsibility of raising a child. I was born defective, my parents tried unsuccessfully to have my problem corrected, but had I been a gosling, my parents would have abandoned me. Dr Robert E McGinnis

[Ophelia]

Dr Paradise,


I enjoyed reading about born deffect animals that you saved and raaised, it really sounds lolevely.[quote][/quote]

[realiz]

This is a tough one. I have to say that I am neither pro-choice nor anti- abortion (I don't like the term pro-life because it insinuates that pro-choice denotes anti-life) because there are just too many variables. Murder is illegal, but self defense is not. I do not think as a society that we have the right to tell all women that we have control over their bodies and can force them into a pregnancy they do not want. I do agree that we need some laws to govern when pregnancies can be terminated. These laws need to be flexible with taking into account particular circumstances.

I think that early pregnancy, say first eight weeks should be a choice of the mothers. Anti-abortionist should use education rather than law to help protect these early lives. Later-term abortions should be governed by law, but allowed in some situations.

[Trish]

I think that early pregnancy, say first eight weeks should be a choice of the mothers. Anti-abortionist should use education rather than law to help protect these early lives.

Thanks realiz. You brought up something that is actually another source of controversy. In some states (usually red states) doctors are required to "educate" the patient with a little speech about how they are about to terminate a human life. Education on the surface seems benign, but if you think about it this little requirement its really a last ditch effort to try to talk the woman out of it. Frankly I think it's insulting that many in government pushed by their constituents feel that they can spread their beliefs inside the doctors office which is supposed to be private. I'm all for a woman being informed of ALL her options, whether we're talking about keeping it, adoption, or abortion with no pressure from the outside world. I think pro-lifers sometimes have the notion that pregnant women are just scared and making a decision based on emotion (the old hysterical woman stereotype). Maybe some are and maybe some came to their choice by making a reasonable assessment of their ability to parent a child properly. I can't help but notice no one ever really questions a man's emotional state or calls him selfish for not wanting to be bothered with responsibility if he gets a vasectomy.

[realiz]

Trish wrote:

Education on the surface seems benign, but if you think about it this little requirement its really a last ditch effort to try to talk the woman out of it.

I thought about this while I was writing. Having counselling for a woman who wants to terminate a pregnancy can be a very good thing provided the 'educator' does not have ulterior motives like having her change her mind. If the education is really to make sure that the woman is making an informed decision, the best decison for HER. The education is more valuable if it provided well before the pregnancy occurs.

[Brotherska]

Hi Everyone.

There have been various opinions provided in this thread. Perhaps if we started at a point of agreement then we could identify our point of divergence.

1. At conception, the normal result is a baby.

2. The growing baby in the womb is designed to stay in that amniotic fluid environment until it reaches a state of maturity there, after which time the baby is welcomed into this atmospheric environment.

3. Without the mother’s cooperation, the baby in the womb may not survive very long. However, once the baby is born, he/she is significantly more dependent upon the cooperation of the mother or guardian for survival. Therefore, the baby is more viable within the womb than without.

4. The number of abortions performed on rape victims, and to save the mother’s life are relatively small.

5. The vast majority of abortions are principally performed for the convenience of the mother.

6. Over the past 30 years, approximately 1,000,000,000 (1 billion) babies have been murdered (intentionally killed) worldwide because of this inconvenience.

7. I think that we have gone so far across the line that we can no longer see it, and we have become numb to the national consequences.

[Ophelia]

[quote="Ophelia"]Dr Paradise,


I enjoyed reading about born defect animals that you saved and raised, it really sounds lovely.


[Sorry I lost the end of my post!]