Trump Watch

[DWill]

No idea which of you two is right. You're both persuasive. The outcome D.B. Roy has just outlined may come about, yet I also find persuasive the argument that the failure of this particular campaign of Trump's may succeed in widening the crack in our democratic society to a gaping fissure. His defeat could be interpreted as "The system worked," but the system could be weakened enough to allow other anti-democratic successors to win the day.

[DB Roy]

No idea which of you two is right. You're both persuasive. The outcome D.B. Roy has just outlined may come about, yet I also find persuasive the argument that the failure of this particular campaign of Trump's may succeed in widening the crack in our democratic society to a gaping fissure. His defeat could be interpreted as "The system worked," but the system could be weakened enough to allow other anti-democratic successors to win the day.

There won't be a successor if Trump calls for violence and they listen to him. That will be the end for them. The transition has to be peaceful so a successor can be groomed. He'll have to be virtual unknown since no current Trump-supporting political personality will be deemed fit to hold office.

[Taylor]

I suspect that C-SPAN will get a ratings boost with their coverage of the electoral vote certification. I don’t expect the GOP to function any differently than what we have been witnessing from them throughout PSfB’s term. I cannot imagine the likes of Jim Jordan or Matt Geatz (just to drop a couple names as example) not putting the country through the shit show routines we watched them deliver during PSfB’s impeachment. On the Senate side there is Gohmert, Cruz ..(Hell I should just list every GOP member). Point is that there is ample evidence that the formalities will be as messy as LanDroid describes.

The mess will only serve as a delay. In the end the GOP will claim the if not for them the 2020 election would truly have been the most fraudulent in history. They will claim that they saved Democracy. They will manage ..with straight faces to repeat their claims of being the true defenders of the American constitution ..that they held the crooked left wing deep state’s feet to the fire ..Trumpism is neo-patriotism. To be against Trump is to hate America. The GOP will become fiscal hawks once again. They will fall back to the standard tropes of the pre-PSfB era.

The GOP is not likely to change their tune anytime soon, for the most part, there is no need for them to do so, their constituents are not going away anytime soon. The MAGA hats will be dusted off and paraded down “first street” every couple years..sometimes gone but never forgotten.

Unless there are some major positives, some fantastical event or events transpire over the coming months .. a sort of communal happening, there will remain the ideological divide ..the wedge between the two halves of America. I’m just now thinking if there can be “wag the dog” scenario. Tomorrow begins the roll-out of the covid vaccines which should be a coming together event but even that’s divisive. The better health and safety of our country doesn’t seem capable of breaking..if even for a moment.. the ideological mess we live in. It’s disconcerting.

Four stabbings in the National capital region yesterday, prompted by it seems the physical confluence of those opposing ideologies. There is nothing wrong in supporting PSfB or demonstrating that support via banner waving etc.. but chanting “stop the steal” supporting the Texas AG’s lawsuit, allowing Giuliani to continue his crusade without some sort of push back only serves to legitimize a POV that is simply incorrect. Secession is becoming a trending topic, high placed GOP operatives and voices are legitimizing a concept that would literally divide the country.

Notice I haven’t referenced libertarianism, (did you think I wouldn’t) it is ignorance of this particularly cruel ideology that underpins the left vs right hysteria swamping not just the U.S. but the world writ large. Convincing people that they possess ill informed ideas when those ideas are bolstered by eco chambers, steering algorithms and the person of adulation..your dear leader ..is not going to happen anytime soon. The only way the current version of the libertarian right is going to fade away is if and when the GOP admits to the fact of their ideological failings and purges the libertarian poison from their system. Only then will we witness the fadeaway right wing ignorance.

Equally important is preventing an overcompensating swing to the left.. I’m not advocating center of the road per say because I think that does little towards improvement ..we need to move decisively into the twenty first century.. moderation won’t achieve that goal. Maintaining libertarian ideological biases will continue to retard future goals as well. The direct marketing of bad thinking needs serious consideration on a first amendment level.. we need to reconsider our faith in free speech.. should bad quality thinking broadcast uncensored be a thing championed?. If progress is hindered via constitutional design and that design is manipulated by forces such as those that brought about PSfB and his cohorts is there a “thing” that needs redevelopment in order to prevent future failure?.

How then is redevelopment achieved? How do we process that without cruelty without destruction of the Bill of Rights? How do we contain a business conglomerate structure ..a corporate structure that is nothing but eager to manipulate the coinage from the pockets of their customers. Fair markets, open societies, regulated economies.. cross border cooperation is not achievable through the economic stonewall of libertarianism.

It will be a riot of ludicrousness on the floors of the nations capital if the GOP fails to contain their more foolish members.

[geo]

Not so fast, here's always another scheme! On January 6, 2021 a joint session of the House and the Senate gather to officially count the votes from the Electors and declare a winner. The more I read about this, the more terrifying it sounds considering GOP actions in the Scotus lawsuit that was rejected yesterday.

Just when you think it's safe again, LanDroid comes up with yet another way Trump and his Republican lackeys can try to screw over our democracy. And I always think, no this is a line they won't cross, but then I'm always surprised again. After the recent SCOTUS defeat, Trump is still loudly braying on Twitter that "WE HAVE JUST BEGUN TO FIGHT!!"

Though DB Roy is right that it's not unusual for lawmakers to object to the results in this formal procedure to count the electoral votes. I don't think Mo Brooks and others will get anywhere. But then again, I've been wrong so many times before.

[DB Roy]

Not so fast, here's always another scheme! On January 6, 2021 a joint session of the House and the Senate gather to officially count the votes from the Electors and declare a winner. The more I read about this, the more terrifying it sounds considering GOP actions in the Scotus lawsuit that was rejected yesterday.

Just when you think it's safe again, LanDroid comes up with yet another way Trump and his Republican lackeys can try to screw over our democracy. And I always think, no this is a line they won't cross, but then I'm always surprised again. After the recent SCOTUS defeat, Trump is still loudly braying on Twitter that "WE HAVE JUST BEGUN TO FIGHT!!"

Though DB Roy is right that it's not unusual for lawmakers to object to the results in this formal procedure to count the electoral votes. I don't think Mo Brooks and others will get anywhere. But then again, I've been wrong so many times before.

It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers. Since the House is controlled by dems, they will shoot it down and that will be the end of it. I've run into people who are floating all kinds of weird ideas. One guy said that if they refuse to certify on Jan 6, then Pelosi would become president. NO! After Dec 14, Biden will officially be declared President-elect which means he takes office on Jan 20. There is no such thing as Congress refusing to certify the electors' votes. They either certify or they object. If they object, they must follow the procedure I just wrote about. If they just refused to participate, that will be construed as them having no objections and the count will go forward to the VP who reads them off. That's it. The ONLY avenue the dissenters have open to them is that objection process and if they do not follow it, then the objection does not count. It never happened. There is no plan B for them. This process is meant to be quick. Too much checking has already gone on and it won't be allowed to drag on any longer. It is designed so that it cannot result in a no-decision. So even if the republicans try to stage a backdoor coup with this Jan 6 procedure, it won't work.

Suppose they riot on the floor. They will be removed and the tally continues. If the Proud Boys burst through the doors with guns blazing, then America as we know it is finished. That's not going to happen. People are making way more out of this than it merits.

[DWill]

If the House was still controlled by Republicans, how would we assess the possibility of the coup succeeding? I wouldn't bet against that happening in that case. It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.

[DB Roy]

If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.

[DWill]

If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.

No, it's just that I think we need to brace for continued Trumpism after Trump exits.

[Robert Tulip]

It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.

Generalissimo Donald Pinochet will spend the next four years trying to trumpet military support for an armed overthrow of the Biden Administration by his Presidency In Exile, somewhat on the model of the CIA backed coup d'etat in Chile in 1973.

Failing that, a new confederacy will seek to mobilise secession of the red states, with possible reintroduction of slavery (joke).

I interpret US history on the model of the ancient Roman transition from republic to empire, where the economic interests of the supremely powerful required removal of the limited consultative constraints exercised by the senate. But such changes take a long time. Rome's Republican heyday was the Punic Wars, and it took 150 years from the defeat of Hannibal to Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. On that time scale, looking at the WW2 greatest generation as America's republican high point, we are now at the equivalent of 130 BC, and full American Empire would not be expected until the end of this century, although considerable internal strife can be expected first.

A difference from Roman republican times is that the USA has external constraints. So Trump's nativist vision of xenophobic nationalism encounters dialogue with other great powers with competing interests, as well of course as the remarkable speed and scope of modern communications.

The slide to dictatorial military empire is what the Trump phenomenon would presage in the obsolete world Trump imagines. Global connection through technology means such a world does not exist except in delusional fantasy. The forces of popular inclusion are likely to outweigh those of autocratic imperialism, but it could be a close run thing, in view of the power of money, arms and emotion to convince people of the truth of big lies, as seen in the current mad election conspiracy theory.

The scale of the US military is the biggest danger to American and world politics, with its ridiculous military expenditure greater than the next ten biggest spenders combined. If the military finds its budget is threatened by democracy, then democracy could go out the window.

[geo]

It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers.

Yes, thank you! I'm just a bit paranoid these days.

I don't know why, but I'm always trying to figure out Trump's motivations. Trump's legal team has filed numerous lawsuits, trying to overturn the election. But was this Trump's actual goal or is he merely posturing for his base. Probably a little of both.

Also, as this NYTimes article points out, Trump's protests of a "rigged election" keeps the money flowing in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/p ... tions.html