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Occupy Wallstreet.

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lindad_amato
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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President Camacho wrote:I love the sentiment but when you elect leaders that can and will ignore you once they have secured their position... what is the point in voting????? It just seems absurd to me and it should to you, too.

As to the protestors not having a specific purpose (you said focus but the purpose or reason behind their gathering is what's important): They all want to be heard.

As to the 60's... aren't the people who went through the "60's" in power right now?!?!?!?
I tried not voting for a number of years and then realized that I didn't have a right to complain if I didn't vote, so now I vote again. If nothing else; I feel better. However, I do believe that an enlightened and voting public is best for any country.

As for the Sixties, Obama is younger than that as are many of the legislators currently in DC. I'm glad to see so many young people getting involved in this.
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giselle

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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Interbane wrote:
That will never happen, but such overpaid executives are exactly the class of "wealthy" who are making more and more money every year, pulling far ahead of the average American.

The point is, rather than educate every single citizen, why not regulate the businesses so they don't take advantage of others?
Why should we try to achieve 'average' wealth? We don't try to achieve average in other areas of human endeavour.

And business is regulated, anyone who has been in business can atttest to the reams of regulations, bureaucracy, paperwork etc. Unfortunately, the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of government as a regulator means the regulatory system is clumsy, slow and there are gaps and very high costs attached to development of regulations, compliance and enforcement.
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giselle

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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President Camacho wrote:As to the protestors not having a specific purpose (you said focus but the purpose or reason behind their gathering is what's important): They all want to be heard.
I said 'focus' because I was referring to the message they send -- is it coherent, clear, actionable? Without this focus, its too easy for leaders and policy makers to turn a blind eye and brush the whole thing off. I agree they all want to be heard but if they want to have any effect they'll have to focus their message or face being brushed off as noisy and confused rabble and then none of them have been 'heard' in any meaningful sense.
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realiz

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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How is a bank justified in lending a ton of money to someone who obviously can't make the payment? Who is the burden of responsibility on? The individual is obviously an idiot, but we can't go through America and kill all the idiots, and new idiots will always be born.
I only have experience with Canadian banks, which are highly regulated and bear the burden if someone defaults on payment, and so they do make every effort to ensure that people can make payments and have collateral before lending money. In the past this was grumbled about by many people, but it has turned out to be very prudent.

That said, and I am not sure I know what I am talking about here, I understood that the US banks were directed or encouraged by government to give subprime mortgages and to make qualification easy, and also, that these were quaranteed by a government supported agency, so the banks did not have to take a loss for default. I don't think this was 'uncaring complacency' but, rather, a naive idea that if you give irresponsible people (idiots) something to be responsible about, that they will rise to the occasion.

Those 'idiots' out there also get to vote and very few people would vote for someone whose campaign with promises including restricting credit to the masses. One thing that would be an excellent idea, would be a mandatory course that anyone borrowing money or obtaining a credit card (especially credit cards!) needed to take beforehand. Again though, who would be happy about this? More regulations to a certain extent are good, but at some point citizens have to take responsibility for themselves.
Why should we try to achieve 'average' wealth? We don't try to achieve average in other areas of human endeavour.
I think it should be like the bell curve. It is probably the healthiest for a society to have the biggest concentration at an 'average' wealth, but we also have to accept that there will be and should be people spread out on each end.
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giselle

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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My meaning was not very clear .. I meant 'we' as individuals, that is, why should we as individuals strive for average wealth when we don't typically do this in other areas like sport or art? On a societal level, there will be a tendency for the greatest number of people to cluster around an 'average' in societies with a significant middle class and this does contribute to stability, which is generally perceived as good. But 'stability' also means its diffcult to make dramatic change because the middle class (numerous and plenty of consumer and voter power) will be defensive of its position and will resist change.
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Interbane

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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More regulations to a certain extent are good, but at some point citizens have to take responsibility for themselves.
The most responsible person in the world would still be taken advantage of at a car dealership if he lacked certain knowledge. You can't educate everyone on every aspect of the economy. Regulation is a necessity, because the regulators are specialized in each particular field. That specialization is needed to see through the mud that's been churned up after decades of an industry doing everything possible to maximize profit.

That's not to say regulations are good, just that there must be balance. I'm okay with a small amount of prophylactic unfairness that goes under the radar of regulating agencies. Such wiggle room is needed in business, where the envelope may have to be pushed. It's not black and white, just like everything in politics, and that's why so many people polarize; they only think in black and white. We need balance, and we are currently unbalanced towards lack of regulation.
That said, and I am not sure I know what I am talking about here, I understood that the US banks were directed or encouraged by government to give subprime mortgages and to make qualification easy, and also, that these were quaranteed by a government supported agency, so the banks did not have to take a loss for default.
So do you blame the government for lack of regulation(to the point of encouraging behavior that should be regulated), or do you blame Wall Street for unleashing the hydra of Lobbyists upon the government, backed by a mountain of cash? Perhaps you could blame over-regulation in the 60's, which is what prompted the organization and power of lobbyists, at the behest of regulated corporations. Perhaps the problem is that people are easily influenced, so that good advertising is the only way to win an election, which means whoever is "supported" the most by donations will win.

The bottom line is that representation is no longer equal. When some people have the ability to donate more money to a campaign, it's as if their vote gets greater weight. Unless there is equal and distributed funding of campaigns, we will only be able to judge the candidates through a biased window. That's no way to be informed of a person's strengths and weaknesses.

Here's a solution. Tell the corporations that they no longer have to suffer the burden of donating to a candidate. The money won't be accepted. Instead, place a very slight tax on corporations over a certain income bracket to be placed into a pool. Money from that pool will be distributed in some fashion to those running for office. I doubt there would be anywhere near enough money. But the idea could be hammered and molded to fit.
And business is regulated, anyone who has been in business can atttest to the reams of regulations, bureaucracy, paperwork etc. Unfortunately, the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of government as a regulator means the regulatory system is clumsy, slow and there are gaps and very high costs attached to development of regulations, compliance and enforcement.
Let's say the regulation in question is sanitation of food factories. Yes, you're absolutely correct that regulation can be frustrating and drastically increase costs. But what costs would increase? Would the meat factory be required to use more fresh meat, rather than meat a day or two old? Would they be required to hire extra cleaning staff to keep the place clean? Would they be "forced" to use safer yet more expensive additives? I remember going through a painful process with the health inspector for a business in Florida, but the hoops he made me jump through all reasonably lead to my business being safer for my future customers. I wouldn't have taken anywhere near the number of precautions before opening if there were no regulations.
Why should we try to achieve 'average' wealth? We don't try to achieve average in other areas of human endeavour.
I don't follow. I think we should aim for the stars. Why would we limit ourselves to an 'ideal' of only average? You may have misunderstood me.
But 'stability' also means its diffcult to make dramatic change because the middle class (numerous and plenty of consumer and voter power) will be defensive of its position and will resist change.
From the ground I'm standing on, I'm hardly defensive. I want to take back territory. I want to go on the offensive. I'm not sure what you mean here either.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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Some interesting photos here taken by an American tourist in probably the place least like the 'wall street ethos' on the planet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/samgellman ... 207571785/

I think they make some sort of comment re the wall street protests, I am not just exactly sure what the comment is though :-D
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realiz

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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So do you blame the government for lack of regulation(to the point of encouraging behavior that should be regulated), or do you blame Wall Street for unleashing the hydra of Lobbyists upon the government, backed by a mountain of cash? Perhaps you could blame over-regulation in the 60's, which is what prompted the organization and power of lobbyists, at the behest of regulated corporations. Perhaps the problem is that people are easily influenced, so that good advertising is the only way to win an election, which means whoever is "supported" the most by donations will win.
There is probably enough blame to be spread all around. Finger pointing is a waste of time and thinking about solutions and ways of implementing change is far more productive.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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Point of interest: I picked up a copy of the October 24 edition of Time Magazine at my doctor’s office yesterday, and the cover story was a ten-page article on the OWS movement. There was also a poll that showed a 54% approval rating for OWS, as opposed to only 27% for the Tea Party. In addition, 65% said the Tea Party’s influence has been negative or negligible, compared to only 23% who said they had a negative opinion of Occupy Wall Street. I couldn’t find the article online (though I did find several references to it), so if anyone’s interested, I guess you’d have to buy a copy somewhere.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet.

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realiz wrote:Finger pointing is a waste of time
I disagree! I think it is under the umbrella of the attribution of blame that most serious reforms take place. I'm reminded now of Mark McGwire telling the Congress how he wasn't there to talk about the past but the future... you betcha![1] It was no surprise that oil rigs are a hazard... enter British Petroleum. It was not a shocking revelation that corporations use phony books... enter Enron. And so on... the point is, without a face given to a problem it doesn't exist. An additional reason for first attributing blame is to simply determine the landscape. By that, and sticking somewhat to the setting, I mean, for example, you wouldn't want to engage in meaningful sheep, chicken, or goat protection measures with a wolf, bobcat, or coyote! Who would trust the wolf who says he is there to talk about the future rather than the past? 'Why cast blame?' he says, 'there is enough to go around... let's talk solutions!' You wouldn't want to replace a car starter or battery when in fact they are operating well enough and the problem happens to be the alternator! It's inattention to detail, the lack of figuring out what exactly resulted in a problem situation that is the #1 cause of sloppy repairs.
[1] Mark McGwire was a baseball player who testified during congressional hearings on the topic of the use and influence of steriods in professional baseball. It's not here or there regarding this topic except for being an example of someone else who didn't care much for the attribution of blame.
The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? - Jeremy Bentham
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