Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

[Flann 5]

Flann 5 wrote:
Sure D.B. Jesus never said to love your enemies or to treat others as you would be treated so anyone who says they are Christian and abuses others is following his teachings.




They certainly believe they are. They couldn't care less what you think.

That's not the point. Anyone can say they are following Christ but if they do the opposite to what he plainly says they clearly are not. You just want to label all Christians and Muslims as dangerous murderous fanatics.
You are even more extreme than the new atheist apologists who don't make the preposterous generalizations you do.

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I'm not an expert on Islam but I know there are different branches of it and it's just wrong to brand them all in the same way.




I agree.

And neither are you, but I'm not so stupid that I imagine all Muslims are of the Isil persuasion.
You care about Mexican immigrants but not about Syrian refugees. That's not your problem. So what if they perish in thousands fleeing war, after all they're Muslims.

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But here's the thing D.B. The racist, Muslim hating far right in Europe are neither Christian or Muslim but citizens of secular societies.




But not all Europeans who don't want to be around Muslims are racist or haters as I hope you well know. Some of them might actually be basing their feeling on incidents as Charlie Hebdo, the London train bombings, 9-11 or these latest attacks in Paris. People have every right to be leery of them. They'd be stupid not to.

There are legitimate concerns about terrorism but a great deal of the rhetoric is just plain hatred with a callous disregard for the plight of such as the Syrian refugees. Don't let them in. Too bad if they drown or starve. It's not their problem.

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How many of them go to any church or practice any religion? Tiresome as it is to repeat it Communism in Russia and China was atheistic and viciously anti religious.




I don't care! Go lay your rap on a communist.

I never thought you did care. My point is that you seem to think that racism and hatred are uniquely religion influenced but obviously many non religious people like you are just as capable of anti Muslim anti religious hatred.

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Go ahead D.B. IMAGINE no religion which is what you would have had if they had been successful in adding all the other millions of religious people to the dead.
All extremes are a problem.

You should know, you're one of them.[/quote]

Take a good look in the mirror D.B.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Really? Let me explain something to you: the KKK very definitely IS a product Christianity.

Sure D.B. Jesus never said to love your enemies or to treat others as you would be treated so anyone who says they are Christian and abuses others is following his teachings.

Your argument is simply not holding water. Islam has a history of invading other nations and stamping out their native religions by force, by murder, under the banner of getting rid of Satanic delusions.

I'm not an expert on Islam but I know there are different branches of it and it's just wrong to brand them all in the same way.

The majority of Muslims do not support the atrocities of Isil which is a particular Wahhabi interpretation which seems to thrive in it's extreme form in places like Iraq where there are wars and sectarian inequality.

You can't look at how strong Christianity is in the American conservative right wing, whether racist or otherwise, and tell me that this is a weak connection. The connection is direct and powerful. The left wing is openly, if not almost entirely, atheistic or agnostic. The right is overwhelmingly Christian.

But here's the thing D.B. The racist, Muslim hating far right in Europe are neither Christian or Muslim but citizens of secular societies.
How many of them go to any church or practice any religion? Tiresome as it is to repeat it Communism in Russia and China was atheistic and viciously anti religious.
Go ahead D.B. IMAGINE no religion which is what you would have had if they had been successful in adding all the other millions of religious people to the dead.
All extremes are a problem.

"I'm not an expert on Islam but I know there are different branches of it and it's just wrong to brand them all in the same way.

The majority of Muslims do not support the atrocities of Isil"

You say not to brand them all the same way then turn around and do just that.

I know it is tough to keep separating them and be politically correct all the time so do not take this as chastisement.

I am now trying to go country to country and as to which type of Islam or Sharia is in the country because as you rightly indicate, their are many various flavors.

If you check the surveys though, about 3/4 of the countries, you would not want to live in.

Islam is way above Christianity in their fundamentalism and immorality.

Immorality, like in Christianity and Islam, seems to be connected to their idol worship of their imaginary God.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

[

There are legitimate concerns about terrorism but a great deal of the rhetoric is just plain hatred with a callous disregard for the plight of such as the Syrian refugees..

This is partially right I think. Perhaps not the refugee part.

The hatred I can understand as it springs from people hearing time after time of atrocities being perpetrated by Muslims.

Just as in the days of the Inquisition, people are bound to hate those who kill for a God of peace who loves them but wants to see them dead.

We mostly do recognize that Islam is just a tool that terrorists and jihadists use to hide in but the fact that so many think as they do without acting on it shows that Islam must change yet they resist change with a vengeance.

It is almost like they like to have terrorists hide within their ranks.

There are many colors of Islam but one wonders why terrorists and jihadists can blend into those colors so easily.

Regards
DL

[Chris OConnor]

Any garment that completely disguises the identity of a person concerns me. What is to prevent a group of men with AK-47s or bombs from walking into the middle of a public area hiding beneath burkas?

[Flann 5]

We mostly do recognize that Islam is just a tool that terrorists and jihadists use to hide in but the fact that so many think as they do without acting on it shows that Islam must change yet they resist change with a vengeance.

It is almost like they like to have terrorists hide within their ranks.

There are many colors of Islam but one wonders why terrorists and jihadists can blend into those colors so easily.

Regards
DL

Hi D.L, No one with any real understanding of Middle East politics thinks these crises in the Arab world can be easily or quickly resolved. Unfortunately in Fisk's words Syria's conflict contains war criminals galore.
The deliberately shocking brutality of Isil arose out of the conflict in Iraq and sectarian retaliations. The 'theology' Isil embraces reduces all other people to the level of non human and 'justifies' cold blooded murder on that basis.

It's hardly true that Isil is militarily unbeatable but the conflicting goals of various nations involved has created an impasse which seems likely to just perpetuate the war in Syria.
It may be that the Turkey summit will produce a more coherent strategy in dealing with Isil though the goal should be forcing the protagonists to negotiations with a view to ending the conflict in a way that is not sectarian.
I have no illusions that Putin or other powers involved are motivated primarily by altruism.
Isil are at war with just about everyone and force seems necessary to bring them to see that they can not succeed militarily and that negotiations are needed.
At the same time it's a horrific war. They will use hospitals and mosques and what civilian populations remain as a shield against bombing.
A recent report from Raqqa says two hospitals were air bombed recently by the French.
Accidental,who knows?
There's also the apocalyptic vision of the Caliphate with the view of of divinely conferred invincibility which could evaporate with military setbacks.
That could have a profound effect on them psychologically. The bombing of hospitals even if used for cover is both foolish,callous and self defeating but unfortunately I don't think in the emotionally charged atmosphere many nations involved will seriously try to avoid this.
Bashir Al Assad is a war criminal and so are Isil. Not a great choice. So it's a real problem in terms of justice either way.
In the end some sort of compromise will be reached and justice won't be it's primary goal.

[Flann 5]

Any garment that completely disguises the identity of a person concerns me. What is to prevent a group of men with AK-47s or bombs from walking into the middle of a public area hiding beneath burkas?

It's possible Chris. The vast majority of attackers are male though there are some female. They don't seem to be particularly concerned about how they appear and usually blow themselves up with their victims.
When it comes to "soft" targets like the civilians in Paris they hardly need that kind of subterfuge. Outlawing the niqab or burka is unlikely to diminish this and just sends out the message that the secular state is targeting this small religious minority without a real basis.

[Chris OConnor]

How is that without a basis?

The basis is that people wearing full disguises cannot be identified and are therefore dangerous to society.

[Flann 5]

How is that without a basis?

The basis is that people wearing full disguises cannot be identified and are therefore dangerous to society.

They can be identified. I'm not aware that these women refuse to be identified if challenged by police.

It's just not necessary for attackers to resort to this if they want to shoot civilians. That's what is routinely found.
They don't care ultimately about being identified since they will expect to either kill themselves or be killed in the ensuing conflict.

[Chris OConnor]

They can be identified. I'm not aware that these women refuse to be identified if challenged by police.

They cannot be identified by security camera footage and eye witnesses.

[Flann 5]

Flann 5 wrote:
They can be identified. I'm not aware that these women refuse to be identified if challenged by police.




They cannot be identified by security camera footage and eye witnesses.

Like I said Chris,they don't need to resort to this subterfuge if their goal is to shoot civilians in public places particularly at night.
It's not their usual modus operandi. The main reason given in introducing the ban was cultural assimilation. Have police or other security forces,(not politicians) even said this is a security issue?