Does hell exist?

[Penelope]

Intrabane Quote:

To say that only fear leads to carnage, and hope cannot lead to carnage is incorrect.

The emotions you mention, jealousy and hate arise from fear.

Jealousy from fear of losing someone's love to another.
Envy from fear of lack.....
Hate from fear of difference,
Aggression from fear of appearing weak.....often


I don't know how hope can arise from a fear of anything. I suppose it can cause carnage, but only if you 'hope' for carnage, and only a madman would do that.

[Interbane]

Your philosopy of fear is frail. ffff When I see a person with a million dollar car, I'm not afraid that I don't have it. That's ridiculous. I'm simply jealous that he has what I don't.

How about hoping that someone dies?

That sentence alone should make the point. It's similar to a weapon. It (hope / a gun) by itself isn't the danger, it's how it's used. If you use hope to motivate yourself to convince people to believe in a destructive dogma, it's like a robber using a gun to rob a bank, then killing the teller.

[Penelope]

If you use hope to motivate yourself to convince people to believe in a destructive dogma, it's like a robber using a gun to rob a bank, then killing the teller.

I nourish my hope - because I can't see the point of being alive and feeling hopeless!!!!!

I think your lack of hope is destructive.

But I don't care to try to convince anybody else of anything....Intrabane.

I have no dogma.

On the other hand, if I am challenged, if I am asked outright what I believe, or what is my philosophy of life.....I do my best to explain myself. Not because I care whether anybody believes it the way I do, but because, just sometimes we can help one another to have hope.

I have been cheered up and influenced by other peoples' philosophy, and therefore, if asked, I share mine. Like now.....with you.

[Interbane]

Penelope: "I think your lack of hope is destructive.

Whoa, don't jump to conclusions. I have a human's worth of hope. I also own a gun. You're missing my point. I hope everyone on earth lives a happy pain free life. I do NOT hope everyone on earth suffers. That would be "hope abuse." I also do NOT hope more people would believe in religion. That would also be "hope abuse." Well, in the recent years, Christianity isn't as bad as it was during the Dark ages. I still does damage however.

I enjoy other people's thoughts. I dislike ambiguity however.

[Penelope]

Well, most 'thinking' people cobble together some kind of philosophy to live by during the course of their lives. And as we experience more and more (pleasure, pain, boredom) we alter our philosophy to make ourselves feel better.

So I suppose it is always going to be somewhat ambiguous.....especially if, like me, you don't adhere to a particular faith, and if you refuse to blindly believe the dogma. I just don't choose to blindly believe in Atheism, either.....but it's OK by me if others want to.

I mean, I have no fear of atheism now because I have talked to Frank, and Chris and the people on here. So I understand their reasons and I understand why they don't like my reasons....

Please note, before you attack.......I said reasons.....not evidence.

I have no evidence to offer.....but I have my reasons, which like many things.....which never the less exist.....are not demonstrable.

[Interbane]

I don't wish to be seen as attacking. I enjoy debate.

My philosophy is simple; pursue the truth. What I understand to be true is extremely malleable and most times uncomfortable. If there is a debate or a hot issue, I lecture myself to not let my own pride interfere with my perspective before I start my brain engines.

I dislike ambiguity because it clouds the truth, and should always be explored until the fog is lifted to the best of your abilities.

If you have your reasons to believe in something, they should of course be reasonable. Being reasonable, they should also be coherent enough to relay via language... typewritten. If you are afraid that your beliefs aren't reasonable or coherent, maybe they need to be reexamined.

[Penelope]

Being reasonable, they should also be coherent enough to relay via language... typewritten. If you are afraid that your beliefs aren't reasonable or coherent, maybe they need to be reexamined.

No, they are not comunicable via language - well, communicable, yes but not explicable - in that I can't give evidence. I'm not afraid that my belief's aren't reasonable, because they are reasonable to me....and I'm not bothered about whether they are reasonable to anyone else.

Our experiences shape our beliefs. I mean, I don't have a gun.....and I don't believe in the 'right to bear arms' but I know why 'you' do. I just don't agree with you. Our experience of growing up in different parts of the World has shaped our beliefs. That is why our beliefs differ.

I also suspect that I grew up in a different time than you. It is a different world for you now, than it was for us. Our beliefs are bound to differ.

Neither belief is true.....absolute concrete provable fact......it is just a belief. You think it is right to own a gun. I think it is wrong.

See - ambiguous???

[Interbane]

Actually, I don't own a gun, it was a hypothetical statement to show my point. Sorry.

I am uncomfortable with people who aren't willing to take opinions on their beliefs, or who are unwilling to explore them. I do this all the time to myself, though it is uncomfortable. I'm not saying that is your stance.

I think the greater danger to mankind is believing too strongly. There's no subject here, it doesn't matter all that much what you believe in, it's how strongly you believe. That's dangerous and arrogant. We shouldn't purposely leave things to ambiguity, in the event that when uncovered, the truth is somewhere else.

Beliefs can be built up within a person's worldview to support conclusions that could be dangerous. How else can terrorists justify their actions? A supporting set of beliefs can be the foundation to a pyramid of beliefs that aren't healthy. You should always deeply analyze what you believe.

[Interbane]

Got my old user name back, thanks Chris!! I lose it as often as I lose my keys...

[GentleReader9]

I don't presume to speak for Penelope and I don't know what she meant to say or how she wants to answer. (Maybe she'll tell us?)

I personally, however, am finding it hard to visualize how hope, all by itself without any admixture of fear, anger, greed, a will to dominate, or some other form of selfishness to the point of violence, could cause destruction. All hope is by itself is openness to possibility for change; usually the connotation is that the hoped-for change would be for the better.

The cruelty of hope in the story of Pandora's Box (by which I do not mean the x-rated version since I haven't seen it...yet, but the Greek myth) is that it can be false, and therefore bitterly disappointing. How does hope, without something more hostile and active, create destruction?

As long as Penelope just hopes you will someday have something she finds to be comforting and enriching to have herself, she isn't hurting you. (Although I do see how it could be annoying). It would be when she decided to force it on you in order to satisfy her fear, anger or lust for power that the inquisitions would begin. And as long as you just don't like her idea for yourself and set that boundary, you are also not hurting her. But if you move to demonizing her and calling her dangerous and holding her responsible for heinous acts other people have done, then you are scapegoating her and you could turn out to be the witch-hunter faster than she does if you aren't very careful to identify what the actual danger around you is, and who it is coming from, and why.

Just an perspective. I have little or no will to force it on anyone. If you don't like it, as Chaucer and Boccaccio before him said, turn over the leaf and read another tale.