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Yes. Evolution.

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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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ant wrote: Hawking, I might add has stated that he realizes theories like these are not scientific but metaphysical.
But, it becomes necessary to "push beyond" the limits of scientific methodology when you've reached boundaries that can not be breached due to human limitations of the present.
You have summed up your position quite nicely in the above line. You are suggesting it is necessary to push beyond science, to meet certain needs. When any scientist talks about pushing beyond scientific methodology, he or she is referring to speculation. One can speculate, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, and one can construct tentitive theories that are ready to be altered at any time. This is a long way from accepting a certain paradigm that one feels comfortable with, and then fighting off all dissidents until one's knuckles are raw, whatever evidence is presented.

Feeling a necessity to push beyond logic and science begs the question of why- what human need is being met? There are some obvious answers here, and they point to the need to have meaning in life, a sense of security, and some ethical rules. Great so far, but how satisfying are these answers ultimately if they are simply human constructs, ones that seem to ominously diverge from the observed universe as our body of knowledge grows?

You have been critical here of various theories of the universe, but right or wrong, at least they have some logical input in them. Yet you seem uncritical of folklore.
"I suspect that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose"
— JBS Haldane
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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"They are imagining how it might all link together, trying to figure out the right equations"


Yes they are indeed. I have stated before that imagination is important, vitally important to science.
Science is attempting to imagine how it "might all link together" in some grand unified theory.
And we do need imagination and at times conjecture if scientific progress is to be made.

Let me quote Karl Popper:

"The way in which knowledge progresses and especially our scientific knowledge is by unjustified and unjustifiable anticipations, by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures"

Science proceeds on a faithful belief that there is order to nature, and on that basis seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If for not faith, science could not proceed accordingly.

Religious belief in a god in unjustifiable because there is no empiracle evidence for god?
Scientific "imagination" and "conjecture" is somehow seen as justifiable dispite the non "empiracleness" of it?

Theists believe in a god that is the prime source of all creation. They've imagined this, they've "guessed" this is true based on claims of revelation AND faith of things unseen.

Scienctists are allowed to be Metaphyscians when convienent,
religious people aren't?

This lofty goal science has to obtain a theory of everything is fantasy. Almost to the point of believing in a fictional Never-Neverland. The quest for the whole truth is impossible for it would require one to know everything about everything. But the quest often turns to the desire to know something about everything, and then everything about something. Nothing like this is realizable.
We can only know something about something.

I appreciate you admitting that you do not know a whole lot about String Theory.
Gosh, I'd be lying if I told you I understand it. It is such an obscure area of science. Why, it's nearly downright meraphysical! The idea of imagining dimensional realities that exist beyond our known reality and attempting to assign related equations to create models that confirm relevant hypothesis is difficult to fathom.

How should we deal with the metaphysical nature of this area of science?
Shall we give our blessing to it despite its non empiracle nature?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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"Have you ever replaced your reverence for the divine for a reverence for nature?"

Thanks for asking.
Actually, it's one and the same to me. I'm speaking for myself, of course.

And quite frankly, I don't give a damn how some of the mocking know-it-all disrespectful punks here on BT would react to that.

Thanks for your input. You've had some interesting things to say.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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ant, first you say.
You wish to exalt the natural world in a way that replaces religion.
I'm sorry my friend, but that will never come to pass.
then you say
"Have you ever replaced your reverence for the divine for a reverence for nature?"

Thanks for asking.
Actually, it's one and the same to me. I'm speaking for myself, of course.
perhaps i can be forgiven for doubting if even you know your own position on certain matters.
And quite frankly, I don't give a damn how some of the mocking know-it-all disrespectful punks here on BT would react to that.


well why not look in the mirror and ask one?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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ant wrote: "The way in which knowledge progresses and especially our scientific knowledge is by unjustified and unjustifiable anticipations, by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures"

Science proceeds on a faithful belief that there is order to nature, and on that basis seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If for not faith, science could not proceed accordingly.

It does not. Science proceeds on the basis that we know nothing until some reasonable evidence comes to light. There may be order, or disorder, either one of which would be followed up with more investigation by those taking an authentically scientific path.

Any "faith" required in the scientific method is of a different order of magnitude from the faith you are subscribing to. One employs all checks and balances possible, the other simply seizes on a myth, and then will not relent, no matter the evidence.
ant wrote: Religious belief in a god in unjustifiable because there is no empiracle evidence for god?
Scientific "imagination" and "conjecture" is somehow seen as justifiable dispite the non "empiracleness" of it?
Speculation is always acceptable, but there is a difference between that and theories for which evidence has been amassed. No scientist is going to insist you simply accept speculation as reality, yet you are doing just that.
ant wrote: Theists believe in a god that is the prime source of all creation. They've imagined this, they've "guessed" this is true based on claims of revelation AND faith of things unseen.

Scienctists are allowed to be Metaphyscians when convienent,
religious people aren't?

This lofty goal science has to obtain a theory of everything is fantasy. Almost to the point of believing in a fictional Never-Neverland. The quest for the whole truth is impossible for it would require one to know everything about everything. But the quest often turns to the desire to know something about everything, and then everything about something. Nothing like this is realizable.
We can only know something about something.
How do you know? I mean, you may be right, but how will you ever know anything, if you won't look? There may be something out there, but if you can't, or won't put your eye to the telescope, you will have to be content to live with ignorance- and myth.
ant wrote: I appreciate you admitting that you do not know a whole lot about String Theory.
Gosh, I'd be lying if I told you I understand it. It is such an obscure area of science. Why, it's nearly downright meraphysical! The idea of imagining dimensional realities that exist beyond our known reality and attempting to assign related equations to create models that confirm relevant hypothesis is difficult to fathom.

How should we deal with the metaphysical nature of this area of science?
Shall we give our blessing to it despite its non empiracle nature?
"I suspect that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose"
— JBS Haldane
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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"The way in which knowledge progresses and especially our scientific knowledge is by unjustified and unjustifiable anticipations, by guesses, by tentative solutions to our problems, by conjectures"

Science proceeds on a faithful belief that there is order to nature, and on that basis seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If for not faith, science could not proceed accordingly.
What Popper is getting at is that before science can test anything, we must hypothesize. If he's saying that faith is needed in an underlying order to the universe, then it is an axiomatic faith that we must all have in order to survive. The same faith we have that if we tie our shoe with one method, that same method will work next time. That is a faith that transcends science; it affects every human. It is a simple faith, a trust in the uniformity of nature.
Theists believe in a god that is the prime source of all creation. They've imagined this, they've "guessed" this is true based on claims of revelation AND faith of things unseen.
That is a complex faith, entailing many consequences about the way the world works, and is not necessary to function. We do not NEED this faith to survive. The primary distinction here is that the simple faith of scientists can be affirmed on a daily basis. The faith of the religious can not be affirmed in the same way.

On one hand(science), we have conjectures that can be thrown out if they are shown to be false. On the other hand(religion), we have conjectures that cannot be shown to be false. That is a categorical distinction, and the most important distinction between science and religion. Because unless we have a criteria for demarcating the true from the false, we will never know what is true and what is false.

This distinction is the key to understanding why scientific knowledge has exponentially expanded. Untrue conjectures are discarded by the thousands, and the vast minority that are left over are considered provisionally true. Religion has no such method to filter out the true from the untrue. The only "progress" religion makes is a mile-high scaffolding of further speculation and interpretation which can never be resolved.
This lofty goal science has to obtain a theory of everything is fantasy. Almost to the point of believing in a fictional Never-Neverland. The quest for the whole truth is impossible for it would require one to know everything about everything. But the quest often turns to the desire to know something about everything, and then everything about something. Nothing like this is realizable.
There are many aspects of life where we set our ideals to an unachievably high level. Are you saying we should lower our goals? Would setting such a limit ensure that science progressed faster? It would not. I constantly speak of my unachievable ideals, with the understanding that it doesn't indicate a "goal", but a "direction". We must make progress, and setting goals along the vector of an unachievable ideal is a good thing, not a bad thing. The limiters are removed, and we maintain open minds.
How should we deal with the metaphysical nature of this area of science?
Shall we give our blessing to it despite its non empiracle nature?
The same way we've done it since Aristotle. Through the philosophy of science. Popper was a philosopher of science, and made great progress in that field. The questions you pose are for philosophy, not for science.

I think you mistakenly believe that science is encroaching upon philosophy. There is a well understood distinction, and conversations about each have their jurisdiction. Posing philosophical conundrums as a weakness of science is a failure to realize that science does not answer them; the philosophy of science answers them.

In other words, you're straw-manning science. Even if scientists make this same mistake, you should realize their error, instead of making it yourself.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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This is where i do my faith vs confidence dance.

Faith is an expectation held without evidence, against the evidence, and regardless of evidence.

Confidence is an expectation held based on a history of corroborative evidence which supports that expectation.

Confidence in an expectation will change with new information. Faith is, by design, immune to new information. That is the purpose of faith. To believe what you want without good reason. When you DO have good reason, you would never have to resort to faith to explain that belief to someone. You would use your good reasons.
Science proceeds on a faithful belief that there is order to nature, and on that basis seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If for not faith, science could not proceed accordingly.
Here's what that should have said.

Science proceeds on a confident expectation that there is order to nature, based on the accumulated evidence which demonstrates that to be the case, and seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If not for the fact that the universe operates through universal laws which we can use to make predictions science could not proceed.


Religion proceeds on a faithful belief that there is a god of some kind, and on that basis seeks to explain away natural phenomena as best as possible in order to preserve the belief that this god exists. If for not faith, religion could not proceed accordingly.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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johnson1010 wrote:This is where i do my faith vs confidence dance.

Faith is an expectation held without evidence, against the evidence, and regardless of evidence.

Confidence is an expectation held based on a history of corroborative evidence which supports that expectation.

Confidence in an expectation will change with new information. Faith is, by design, immune to new information. That is the purpose of faith. To believe what you want without good reason. When you DO have good reason, you would never have to resort to faith to explain that belief to someone. You would use your good reasons.
Science proceeds on a faithful belief that there is order to nature, and on that basis seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If for not faith, science could not proceed accordingly.
Here's what that should have said.

Science proceeds on a confident expectation that there is order to nature, based on the accumulated evidence which demonstrates that to be the case, and seeks to explain natural phenomena as best as possible. If not for the fact that the universe operates through universal laws which we can use to make predictions science could not proceed.


Religion proceeds on a faithful belief that there is a god of some kind, and on that basis seeks to explain away natural phenomena as best as possible in order to preserve the belief that this god exists. If for not faith, religion could not proceed accordingly.
:sigh:

Thanks for your reply.

I think your working definition of “faith” is an impoverished one. It exposes a very poor religious and theological understanding of faith and reason, and the relationship both share.
It is not surprising. The commonality among atheists is their prodigious ignorance of related concepts. As an example, Dawkins is a great scientist, but also a blathering idiot when he attempts to characterize religion.

To educated yourself on faith and reason you might want to read some Saint Augustine or Thomas Aquinas. I don’t think it’d be a total waste of your time if you wish to be taken serious when you use the word faith as a talking point.

Regarding your mentioning of “confidence” and “expectation” – yes, I’d say that before science begins to examine nature, it’s EXPECTED there is ORDER to the natural world, or the endeavor would be meaningless. Science gains confidence only after a phenomena examined has fit explanatory models that add to our understanding, however transient it may be. History has shown our understanding of the natural world is a work in progress. I don’t have to spell it out anymore for you here. Your strength is science and keeping up with related news.

I know what I said. Your reassembling of my words was an attempt to continue to ossify your dogmatic, anti religious posture.

Thanks 8)
Last edited by ant on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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:sigh:

Thanks for your reply.

I think your working definition of “faith” is an impoverished one. It exposes a very poor religious and theological understanding of faith and reason, and the relationship both share.
Perhaps it is your own understanding which is impoverished? It happens often when people turn to great thinkers from the distant past and hope to use their ideas in modern dialogue. The solution to this problem can be found in the wisdom that we're all standing on the shoulders of giants.

Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas should not be used as a source of philosophical enlightenment. I also wonder why you didn't mention Platinga or Calvin or Kant?

Rather than preach about other people's misunderstanding of the conceptual definitions ant, you should do some research on your own. Up to date research that is. :) http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/faith/

Regarding your mentioning of “confidence” and “expectation” – yes, I’d say that before science begins to examine nature, it’s EXPECTED there is ORDER to the natural world
That is an expectation that has been inductively reaffirmed for thousands of years. Meaning we can be confident there is order to the natural world. You're brushing up against the problem of induction. It's a great problem to ponder.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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There are no human "expectations" imposed on "the will of God"
"Thy Kingdom come, thy WILL be done"



He is NOT an authority (nor am I) on Faith and Reason. Instead, he is willing to fashion terms in a manner that both eviscerates their meaning AND supports his argument.

He should read your link and be more intellectually honest about this.
I think if he made an honest effort, he and I could have a more open conversation about this.

Do you think he's standing on the shoulder of giants with his water-downed definition of "faith?"

Baloney.

Ps

Thanks for the link. It's a great one. I plan on looking it over later tonight (honestly).
Last edited by ant on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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