The Mything Link

[Interbane]

The obvious question is, "What did Lewis, as an expert on mythology, perceive in Tolkien's argument which convinced him?"

People can be and are convinced by the strangest things. I didn't see anything in the text you posted that is convincing. I couldn't speak for Lewis and what he would find convincing.

What is it that convinced Albert Einstein that Communism was a good political ideology?

If we ask why people believe what they do, it's a question for psychology, or for their biographer. The truth of the content of their beliefs is a separate discussion. Any attempted connection is contingent, non-sequitur.

[geo]

The obvious question is, "What did Lewis, as an expert on mythology, perceive in Tolkien's argument which convinced him?"

It doesn't seem very plausible that C.S. Lewis' conversion came about merely as a result of a conversation with Tolkien. Certainly, that may have been a factor for the timing of his conversion, but likely he would have come around to that perspective sooner or later.

People believe in all kinds of things, and they can usually articulate reasons for why they believe, but those reasons are probably rationalizations to some degree. So much of what we do and think is subconscious, and we invent narratives that make sense to us. Futhermore, those narratives can change over time. So, how C.S. Lewis explains his conversion to Christianity is just a narrative he came up with that made sense to him at the time.

I've been going through some of my old books lately, trying to declutter my office and make room on the shelves (for more books). When I was in my early twenties, I must have received a book catalog from some university press, and I bought several titles that appealed to me at the time. I bought THE BAD POPES, SCANDALOUS SAINTS, JESUS: AN HISTORIAN'S REVIEW, and THE DEVIL IN THE SHAPE OF A WOMAN. I would say now that such titles reflect my growing skepticism of religion and belief in God. But at the time, I probably would have come up with entirely different reasons. Those reasons are probably not very important in the scheme of things.

[stahrwe]

Except that;
1) Lewis refers to the conversation with Tolkien as the factor;
2) You are not Lewis or, forgive me, at his level;
3) To claim that Lewis created the narrative to explain his conversion conflicts with the fact that he reported to conversation and his conversion within days.

Lewis' conversion was not a process it was an event brought about my the conversation; so, once again, drop all the diversion. Something in the argument presented by Tolkien was cathartic for Lewis and transformed his view of Christianity.

And, we still have not dealt with Tolkien's concept of mythology and explanation that Christianity was true. Of all people, Tolkien should have either dismissed mythology, or excused Christianity from being a myth. The fact that he did neither is significant. It is further significant that Tolkien and Lewis both recognized the Power of Myth and long before Joseph Campbell appeared on the scene. Their writings upend the perception that Campbell was a breath of fresh air.

[LanDroid]

JRR Tolkien wrote what some have called the greatest book of the 20th century and others have called the greatest book of the 2nd millenia.

Obviously a controversial point. A quick perusal of the link below provides the following results.

2 lists that have LOTR as # 1.
1 list with LOTR as # 3.
1 list with LOTR as # 4, right behind 2 books by Ayn Rand and 1 by L. Ron Hubbard.
2 lists where LOTR is not in the Top 100.

https://www.google.com/search?q=greates ... e&ie=UTF-8

Quote:
A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading.

Yoursk replied:
the same might be said for the young christian...

Yes, especially if the young christian actually starts reading the bible. :pop: => => :punk:

[youkrst]

Yes, especially if the young christian actually starts reading the bible. :pop: => => :punk:

yes it's all there

Song of Solomon 8:8

We have a little sister,
and she has no breasts.
What shall we do for our sister
on the day when she is spoken for?

Song of Solomon 8:10

I was a wall,
and my breasts were like towers;
then I was in his eyes
as one who finds[a] peace.

this is surely the holy spirit speaking through holy "breast" men of old

[stahrwe]

First, I call D and E on you both.

Second, youkrst why did you quote Song 8:8 and 8:10 but skip 8:9?
Did you arrive at those verses on your own or did you take it from some existing attack on the Bible?

The problem which I find over 90% of the time when skeptics quote the Bible with a supposed demonstration of its flaws, is that the real problem is that the verses are quoted out of context. Let me provide the full quote in way of demonstration;

We have a little sister, And she hath no breasts: What shall we do for our sister In the day when she shall be spoken for?
If she be a wall, We will build upon her a turret of silver:
And if she be a door, We will inclose her with boards of cedar.
I am a wall, and my breasts like the towers [thereof]
Then was I in his eyes as one that found peace.

This is from the Revised Standard Version. It is not clear who the 'little sister' is. It could be that the Shulamite is merely stating the principles of her family. 'In the days of her adolescence- the concern is to protect her innocence and purity until she was of marriageable age. `If she be a wall,' meant that she would be strong and virtuous, and that no man would be able to seduce her. `If she be a door,' meant that she might be weak and easily `entered,' as through a door, by some seducer.' in either case, the focus of the verses is on preserving her welfare; of protecting her. The issue is what degree of protection she needed. If she was already pretty wise, then she would not need to have a wall built around her. These verses show the respect family shows for its members and also the fact that women, in Bible times, did get respect from the other members of the family as well as their protection. These verses are NO different then what we find in our society when our sisters or daughters reach puberty. The fact that she says, "I was a wall," is better than either plan for her protection, This means that the Shulamite kept herself chaste and pure; in other words, she was a strong, one might say, liberated, woman in her time. Imagine that.

Thank you for quoting part of the passage and allowing me to expand on and explain it.

I will forego the imagery of the passage as it relates to the Church. That can wait for another time.

[Interbane]

It is further significant that Tolkien and Lewis both recognized the Power of Myth and long before Joseph Campbell appeared on the scene. Their writings upend the perception that Campbell was a breath of fresh air.

I don't think many people here doubt the power of myth. It has shaped the world. The crux of the discussion is the truthfulness of a myth, which is a different conversation. Whether a myth is powerful, or whether it is truthful, are two different questions. Where they overlap can be discussed in time. I assume your end is a discussion of the truthfulness of the Christian myth. But you've only emphasized the power of the myth. If there is a segue, make it clear.

Lewis' conversion was not a process it was an event brought about my the conversation; so, once again, drop all the diversion. Something in the argument presented by Tolkien was cathartic for Lewis and transformed his view of Christianity.

Stahrwe, you're posing the question as if you expect an answer. Where failure to give the answer is a failure of understanding. Why don't you come right out and say what you think influenced Lewis' beliefs? Then tell us why you think it's important, and how you think it supports Christianity.

[DWill]

JRR Tolkien wrote what some have called the greatest book of the 20th century and others have called the greatest book of the 2nd millenia.

Obviously a controversial point. A quick perusal of the link below provides the following results.

2 lists that have LOTR as # 1.
1 list with LOTR as # 3.
1 list with LOTR as # 4, right behind 2 books by Ayn Rand and 1 by L. Ron Hubbard.
2 lists where LOTR is not in the Top 100.

https://www.google.com/search?q=greates ... e&ie=UTF-8

Quote:
A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading.

Yoursk replied:
the same might be said for the young christian...

Yes, especially if the young christian actually starts reading the bible. :pop: => => :punk:

It's as I suspected: LOTR has great popularity, but critics don't rate it highly. LOTR is one book in a genre that is closely allied to fairy tales, heroic myths, and children's adventure stories. That's all fine, but it's not a likely territory to go looking for the works of fiction that are the greatest distillations of individual lives or of history. At the risk of sounding snobbish, LOTR isn't on the highest plane of literary art. Its category is high fantasy, according to my daughter, who took a college class in science fiction and fantasy. I defer to her, since I paid for the course.

[youkrst]

Hi Stahwre, always good to see a fellow GKC appreciater, i can't thank you enough for turning me on to his wonderful insights.

Second, youkrst why did you quote Song 8:8 and 8:10 but skip 8:9?

sorry, i was of course trying to keep abreast of the situation vis a vis titties in the bible as a way of joining in some humour with Landroid, i find the stifling air of literalism gets me longing to escape the box.

as you know, there is no room inside a box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mKvxu5RKqI

at 2:40 Doug touches heaven (apparently it's within, so Jesus says anyway)

in case the music is meh, here are the lyrics

Lonely days will come and go,
nothing new unless you're bold,
revolution #19 brand new wave of anger
Stain yourself with pumpkin pie, liquid tattoo I got mine,
don't forget forgetfulness, call it deconstruction
There is no room inside a box,
there is no room inside.
Way down in the deep depress,
colder than the coldest yes,
we all know of loneliness
others to another,
just a place to run and hide
just a place to free your mind,
just a place to break the chains
and find whatever matters
There is no room inside a box,
there is no room inside.

more than happy, in fact delighted to quote verse 9

If she is a wall, we build by her a palace of silver. And if she is a door, We fashion by her board-work of cedar.

thats from Youngs literal translation, an old fave of mine.

ahhh i see the Door through which i might escape the box.

after all You are the Door. (Jim Morrisons Grave)

a great song by the way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLW-Pr-y8qA

heres the live version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHVQ2KVFTc

bad sound but kickass vibe

in case the music is a not your cup of tea here are the lyrics

Am I a pilgrim?
Or another souvenir hound?
In the city of lights I set my sights
On a king's domain.
It was a manhole
Dug over at the edge of town
And a spray can scrawl
on a cemetary wall
says "You'd better behave"
Jim Morrison's Grave

It's getting cold here
And there ain't a lizard in sight
Did the end begin
When you shed your skin
In the home of the brave?
Somebody shake him
From the land of larger than life
Where the remnant warn
of a legend born
In a dead man's cave.
Jim Morrison's Grave

I stay driven 'cause there's nowhere to park
I can't shut my eyes, I'm afraid of the Dark
I lie awake
That stone left me chilled to the bone
Sound the alarm before it's done
Find Jim Morrision

Come away to Paris
Let him see another day
Let him fade out slowly
Only fools burn away
Let a true love show him what a heart can become
Somebody find Jim Morrison
Find Jim Morrison's Grave
Ohhhh......

I get weary, Lord I don't understand
How a seed gets strangled in the heart of a man
While the music covers like an evening mist
Like a watch still ticking on a dead man's wrist
Tick away

Did you arrive at those verses on your own or did you take it from some existing attack on the Bible?

no as i said i was just having a laugh! (te absolvo?)

The problem which I find over 90% of the time when skeptics quote the Bible with a supposed demonstration of its flaws, is that the real problem is that the verses are quoted out of context. Let me provide the full quote in way of demonstration;

you know the word skeptic has a deeper meaning

Definition

In ordinary usage, skepticism (US) or scepticism (UK) (Greek: 'σκέπτομαι' skeptomai, to think, to look about, to consider; see also spelling differences) refers to:

(a) an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object;
(b) the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain; or
(c) the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism that is characteristic of skeptics (Merriam–Webster).

In philosophy, scepticism refers more specifically to any one of several propositions. These include propositions about:

(a) an inquiry,
(b) a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing,
(c) the arbitrariness, relativity, or subjectivity of moral values,
(d) the limitations of knowledge,
(e) a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment.

Thank you for quoting part of the passage and allowing me to expand on and explain it.

you are most welcome, and i see your interpretation and raise you to the Nth power

I will forego the imagery of the passage as it relates to the Church. That can wait for another time.

fascinating

Ephesians 5:32

This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

and on earth peace to men of good will (hunting)

please excuse me while i attend to these stratocasters (kinda like excaliburs only slightly more contemporary)

[LanDroid]

I will forego the imagery of the passage as it relates to the Church. That can wait for another time.

No it can't. The Church is a wall with breasts like towers?