Does hell exist?

[Interbane]

I hope that all people can see the truth and structure to the Nazi regime. Personally, it fills me with pride at the depth of the human intellect to realize what sacrifice must be made to ensure our gene pool is of the highest caliber...

Ideas and beliefs are contagious. They spread, and their method of contagion is widely varied. The bad part is that there are so many false or harmful beliefs or ideas. Some only mildly harmful or annoying, but still negative. If you have aids and bleed on me, I will be angry with you. If you hope for me to believe in nazism, I will be angry with you. Hope isn't simply openness. It contains bias. You will act upon that bias whether or not you realize it. All beliefs should be thoroughly examined.

[GentleReader9]

Yes, it is always beneficial to examine beliefs, as they really exist, on their own terms, in their real contexts, without distorting them. In order to show how a hope could be harmful by itself, you had to state something you don't actually believe. It's not exactly and literally lying, but it is taking something out of the context where it can be thoroughly explored and examined for true accountability. A person can only be held accountable for his or her beliefs if he or she is willing to be honest about what they are. The world is only safe for honest dialogue when we let other people speak for themselves without distorting what they are saying.

If we had an actual Nazi asserting the belief you stated at this forum and they were willing to be honest with us about the basis for that belief, we would be able to have a dialogue and understand if they were lying about the purity of their hope to manipulate others for an agenda of control, and if so, whether or not any fears were underlying that motivation. As it is, you were not being entirely sincere in claiming this belief, so we can't ask you as anything you say will be a projection.

Don't get me wrong. I have stated things here lightly, flippantly, carelessly at times, at times as a rhetorical strategy to create more dialogue I think will be interesting. I don't think you're doing anything wrong in a moral sense. I do think that since we are examining reason, ideas, motives and evidence we should discuss standards for looking at those.

Evidence can be looked at dispassionately by anyone and should apply to concrete, objective claims about the material world we share. That is one discursive context.

Reasons need to be looked at in terms of the argument or thought sequence they occupy and how well they belong there, logiaclly, rhetorically, or sometimes poetically and symbolically, depending on what is being argued or considered.

Motives, like fear, anger, greed, hope, love, generosity can only be rightly assessed and understood within an understanding of their context, i.e., the emotional and motivational state of the personality that feels and is moved by them. They need someone, the person who really feels what's going on around those motives in order for us to be sure of where they are coming from and where they are likely to go. We interact with that process that determines where they will go ourselves in communicating with the person, and we make the world more dangerous or safer for those we address and for ourselves as a result of our willingness to be authentic and honest, and to allow the other person to be the one who gets to speak to us about their position.

Telling someone like Penelope she intends, or will unwittingly cause with her careless intent, something that will hurt you when you know (or should know) she doesn't, isn't going to make the world safer. I truly believe that. You can hold me accountable for explaining as much about it as you want. You can tell me why you disagree and I promise to listen and be ready to revise my position if I am wrong.

[Interbane]

Gentle: "The world is only safe for honest dialogue when we let other people speak for themselves without distorting what they are saying."

Throw hypothetical rhetoric out the window?

"Telling someone like Penelope she intends, or will unwittingly cause with her careless intent, something that will hurt you when you know (or should know) she doesn't, isn't going to make the world safer."

And killing a logger won't save the forest. I'm making no attacks against Penelope. What I dislike is the contagious effect of certain memes. If that meme is a belief that does damage, I will speak out. The damage might be minor or insignificant, like the millions of chain emails that clog up email inboxes. I will speak out against that also. If you fail to send an email to 10 people, you will not die tomorrow. Stop wasting my time with that nonsense.

"If we had an actual Nazi asserting the belief you stated at this forum and they were willing to be honest with us about the basis for that belief, we would be able to have a dialogue and understand if they were lying about the purity of their hope to manipulate others for an agenda of control, and if so, whether or not any fears were underlying that motivation."

This hypothetical Nazi was a counterargument to the statement that hope is only a good thing. When I say that jealousy can exist without fear, then it's likely that other emotions can exist without fear. That was a different line of discussion and I had hoped was put to rest. We wouldn't need to interrogate the Nazi to see if fear was truly an underlying motive, since that wasn't my point.

My original point was that skepticism is a virtue. Hoping for someone to believe in something that isn't true isn't virtuous. The concept of heaven and hell is a belief trap. Once you believe, it's hard to break free of that trap.

Skepticism > Faith

[Penelope]

Interbane and GR - I agree with both you here.

It is not good to feel certainty in spiritual matters. I think that is probably why 'God' and spiritual truths remain so elusive and personal and inexplicable.

I can only explain myself by saying, that when I have managed to absorb or assimilate, certain spiritual matters, it is like a feeling of recognition...I feel as though I have rediscovered something that my soul has alway known.....or already knows. A feeling of timelessness.....and that we, as souls, have all the time in the World to discover the truth about what we are.

Now, doesn't that sound ridiculous? You see, I can't explain myself, so maybe, it isn't that important to try.

I do know that when mankind tries to categorise, analyse and pigeonhole 'God' or spiritual truths.....and when people believe they have it all sorted.....and then attempt to inflict their truth on others.....then follows the inquisition. With certainty.....follows the inquisition.....so, let us not be certain.....let us just have hope and encouragement, and if not love, then at least affection for one another.

We seem to be all feeling about in the dark.....with just enough enlightenment and encouragment to keep us interested.

Well, that's what it's been like for me.

,

[Interbane]

Penelope: "I can only explain myself by saying, that when I have managed to absorb or assimilate, certain spiritual matters, it is like a feeling of recognition..."

That feeling can and has been explained scientifically numerous times. The human mind is incredible. Don't take that personally. Words can't express the complexity of this matter, of course.

I sometimes feel sorry for people that can't see the magic that is all around us and instead must believe in the fantasy of angels and demons and omnipotent beings. Reality is so must more mezmerizing than the illusion of religion.

Penelope: "I do know that when mankind tries to categorise, analyse and pigeonhole 'God' or spiritual truths.....and when people believe they have it all sorted.....and then attempt to inflict their truth on others.....then follows the inquisition."

The only people that have suffered rape, murder, slaughter, and other atrocities via inquisition are people who religion saw as nonbelievers. This is part of our history that motivates me to speak out against religion. I would never cross that line, it's ridiculous. Only someone with absolute faith would do something like this, too fearful of a false hell to change their beliefs.

[Mr. P]

Penelope: "I can only explain myself by saying, that when I have managed to absorb or assimilate, certain spiritual matters, it is like a feeling of recognition..."

That feeling can and has been explained scientifically numerous times. The human mind is incredible. Don't take that personally. Words can't express the complexity of this matter, of course.

I sometimes feel sorry for people that can't see the magic that is all around us and instead must believe in the fantasy of angels and demons and omnipotent beings. Reality is so must more mezmerizing than the illusion of religion.

Penelope: "I do know that when mankind tries to categorise, analyse and pigeonhole 'God' or spiritual truths.....and when people believe they have it all sorted.....and then attempt to inflict their truth on others.....then follows the inquisition."


The only people that have suffered rape, murder, slaughter, and other atrocities via inquisition are people who religion saw as nonbelievers. This is part of our history that motivates me to speak out against religion. I would never cross that line, it's ridiculous. Only someone with absolute faith would do something like this, too fearful of a false hell to change their beliefs.

Ahhh...welcome back Interbane.

Mr. P.

[Penelope]

Well, Interbane, I happen to think that God and Spirituality is 'natural' to us. We can't explain it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I can pray with all my might and main for bananas to grow on my tomato bushes in the garden.

But God doesn't do those kind of miracles.

God, the spirit, the reality....whatever it is....uses natural means....

and during my life....I have been satisfied...in my search....but all searches and pilgrimages are personal.....

If you see life as a pilgrimage....a search...then you will receive the answers that are relevant to 'your' questions......but 'your' questions will always be different than 'mine', or the next persons. It is personal you see, that is why it is wrong to inflict our own questions and answers, of a spiritual nature, onto other people, who might have different questions entirely.

[Interbane]

Penelope: "It is personal you see, that is why it is wrong to inflict our own questions and answers, of a spiritual nature, onto other people, who might have different questions entirely."

My belief is fluid. Constantly changing. I've reached this point by being inquisitive and searching for the truth my entire life. During my mental journey, I've come across almost every common explanation and have had it answered in a way that does not involve anything Spiritual or God. The explanation you give, I've had my own brain ask myself in the past. I've felt that way. My responses are to answer your explanations the same way I've answered my own, not to inflict my beliefs upon you. No matter what you feel, or how you interpret things, that is able to be explained without spirituality.

"If you see life as a pilgrimage....a search...then you will receive the answers that are relevant to 'your' questions......but 'your' questions will always be different than 'mine', or the next persons."

I'll respond again in a second, gotta jump computers.

Okay... lost my train of thought.

I appreciate the compliment. I realize that my beliefs may be unique, but having a cookie cutter belief such as yours is less noble. You shouldn't rely so much on the answers that others provide. Think deeply about your beliefs, they may then not be so inexplicable.

[GentleReader9]

Hey, Interbane,

The only people that have suffered rape, murder, slaughter, and other atrocities via inquisition are people who religion saw as nonbelievers.

This is factually incorrect. Most people who suffered at the hands of the Inquistion were believers in something slightly different, but no less spiritually grounded, than what the Inquisitors believed. All the so-called heresies of the Church, the other world religions, the varied and diverse sets of symbolic language and imagery people use to describe what they believe when they get to the edge of the Known -- these are the things that upset the Inquisitors.

Historically, there are very few self-proclaimed atheists in the records of the Inquisition. This is because spirituality is not at all a "cookie cutter" belief. As very broad category for diverse expressions of subjective experiences, spirituality is an individual's way of exploring and expressing how they believe themselves to be connected to a greater whole with life around them. It is fluid, changing, based on what cultures and people learn through internally-directed questioning about their experiences, just like your changing intellectual growth.

I do know that when mankind tries to categorise, analyse and pigeonhole 'God' or spiritual truths.....and when people believe they have it all sorted.....and then attempt to inflict their truth on others.....then follows the inquisition.

If you really look honestly and with your mind open at what Penelope is saying above, and if you consider the actual history of the Inquisition, you will admit that hers is an accurate assessment of what the motivation behind it is, and that your claim that hers is a "cookie cutter" belief is not an accurate description of that.

I don't send more emails than you, do, by the way, and it won't kill you to read the ones you receive with attention to what is said rather than with preconceived ideas that you already know what people mean and it's something you already understand and have encountered elsewhere: a recognizable heresy according to your sense of reality. What if it were new and interesting and you missed it?

[Interbane]

Gentle: "This is factually incorrect. Most people who suffered at the hands of the Inquistion were believers in something slightly different, but no less spiritually grounded, than what the Inquisitors believed."

I stand corrected. Religion is responsible for slaughtering all types of people, not just nonbelievers.

"As very broad category for diverse expressions of subjective experiences."

The term "subjective" is enough for me. It is cookie cutter because it involves initial indoctrination, then when critical thinking is concerned, it leads 99% of the time to emotions and feelings and "I just know" rather than anything remotely objective. The templates for the cookie is monotheism, structured with a few different templates that get more specific. Created by men thousands of years ago.

Penelope: "It is personal you see, that is why it is wrong to inflict our own questions and answers, of a spiritual nature, onto other people, who might have different questions entirely."

You may have your questions, but you've been indoctrinated to accept a certain answer. Everything else with respect to your belief follows suit. Following faith, subjective experiences fill the gaps.

If you think it's wrong to inflict your answers onto others, then you agree that monotheism is doing exactly the opposite in "spreading the word."

If your spirituality is not only completely separate from all major religions, but also didn't start with them originally, then you have my full apology for being a turd.