The End of Faith, for readers late to the party

[Interbane]

Stahrwe

No, it was the same as every motice. "I want something you have"

So, Osama Bin Laden wanted our pants wearing women? I would also be interested to hear your take on the conflicts over the "holy land". Would you say that the conflict is only territorial, without admitting the territory is so desired for religious reasons?

Do you acquit past leaders when they quote biblical passages in support of their wars? Wars may be started in many cases for non-religious reasons, but appealing to religion is an excellent way to justify it. "God says I'm allowed to kill heretics and witches."

It's obvious you're trying to simplify cause and effect in order to excuse religion. At least refrain from hypocrisy and mention the bad that is done in the name of religion every time you mention the good.

Wikipedia:
A religious war is a war caused by, or justified by, religious differences. It can involve one state with an established religion against another state with a different religion or a different sect within the same religion, or a religiously motivated group attempting to spread its faith by violence, or to suppress another group because of its religious beliefs or practices. The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples, especially in History Books.


Holy books are horrible for morality. They no longer apply. The point isn't in arguing about what could be or what should be as far as interpretations are concerned. The point is the track record. Millions have died because of religion.

Here is something to break the ice on what exactly we need regarding a morality that can be applied globally:
http://www.amazon.com/Code-Global-Ethic ... 1616141727

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe

No, it was the same as every motice. "I want something you have"

So, Osama Bin Laden wanted our pants wearing women? I would also be interested to hear your take on the conflicts over the "holy land". Would you say that the conflict is only territorial, without admitting the territory is so desired for religious reasons?

Osama Bin Laden wants our land. He wants world domination. Ultimately he could care less about US morals. Where did most of the 911 hijackers spend their last night? -Strip clubs. If they were truly opposed to sexuality why would they visit those places?

Do you acquit past leaders when they quote biblical passages in support of their wars? Wars may be started in many cases for non-religious reasons, but appealing to religion is an excellent way to justify it. "God says I'm allowed to kill heretics and witches."

Cite examples please.

It's obvious you're trying to simplify cause and effect in order to excuse religion. At least refrain from hypocrisy and mention the bad that is done in the name of religion every time you mention the good.

On the contrary I submit that it is you and SH who are attempting to simplify cause and effect. Religion is bad. Religion is responsible for all bad in world. Get rid of religion and world will be at peace.

:
A religious war is a war caused by, or justified by, religious differences. It can involve one state with an established religion against another state with a different religion or a different sect within the same religion, or a religiously motivated group attempting to spread its faith by violence, or to suppress another group because of its religious beliefs or practices. The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples, especially in History Books.

I suppose that it is possible that a war could be fought for purely religious purposes but I sincerely doubt it. In fact, 99% of the wars that are claimed to be religious really had political and economic motives.

Holy books are horrible for morality. They no longer apply. The point isn't in arguing about what could be or what should be as far as interpretations are concerned. The point is the track record. Millions have died because of religion.

Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The above 'no longer applies'?

Let me ask you, if everyone in the world behaved in a manner that paid homage to this quote, what do you suppose the world would be like?

[DWill]

stahrwe, you're essentially just guessing what's in Harris' book. I don't see how you can pretend to know what he says after reading 12 pages. He doesn't conduct his argument on the simplistic grounds you say he does. A little analysis, instead of these broad-brush accusations, would be appreciated. But you gotta read the book to do that.

[stahrwe]

stahrwe, you're essentially just guessing what's in Harris' book. I don't see how you can pretend to know what he says after reading 12 pages. He doesn't conduct his argument on the simplistic grounds you say he does. A little analysis, instead of these broad-brush accusations, would be appreciated. But you gotta read the book to do that.

1) Am I mischaracterizing TEoF?
2) I did find a source for the book which did not require payment by me. Do we have to read the whole book before we comment on things? That doesn't seem to be the way BT works for other books.
3) I am using SH's published words.
4) It is not my observation only, it is also shared by a number of people who gave TEoF top ratings on Amazon.com.
5) Is this an accurate quote by SH: ""As long as it is acceptable," Harris says, "for a person to believe that he knows how God wants everyone on earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths." In the past sixty seconds, someone has no doubt died this way."? A vast majority of the Christians in this country and the world believe that Christainity is the way the world should live but they are not killing others. A vast majority of the Muslims in this country and the world believe that Islam is the way the world should live but they are not killing others. The problem is that for decades a militant group of fanatics was allowed to promote a political agenda unchallenged. The problem with SH is that he is using the extremists to promote his agenda instead of addressing the real problem realistically.

[Interbane]

Stahrwe:

The above 'no longer applies'?

Let me ask you, if everyone in the world behaved in a manner that paid homage to this quote, what do you suppose the world would be like?

Where do you get that silly idea? The golden rule of morality would of course still apply, but not in that antiquated version. I don't want to be treated as my neighbor would treat himself, because he is gay and I am not. If you want an updated version to the golden rule of morality, read the book I linked.

Osama Bin Laden wants our land. He wants world domination.

His motivation wasn't religious? Let me hear you say that. Explain(rationalize) away his religious references in his Fatwa while you're at it.

Cite examples please.

The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples, especially in History Books.

I suppose that it is possible that a war could be fought for purely religious purposes but I sincerely doubt it. In fact, 99% of the wars that are claimed to be religious really had political and economic motives.

Stop agreeing with me! I've already said most wars have political or economic motives. Go read my other posts. The problem is, religion is a justification for war, so in many cases is as guilty as the 'motive'.

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe:

The above 'no longer applies'?

Let me ask you, if everyone in the world behaved in a manner that paid homage to this quote, what do you suppose the world would be like?

Where do you get that silly idea? The golden rule of morality would of course still apply, but not in that antiquated version. I don't want to be treated as my neighbor would treat himself, because he is gay and I am not. If you want an updated version to the golden rule of morality, read the book I linked.

Antiquated version?
"And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself'"

I don't see any need of, or possibility of improvement in this statement.

Osama Bin Laden wants our land. He wants world domination.

His motivation wasn't religious? Let me hear you say that. Explain(rationalize) away his religious references in his Fatwa while you're at it.

Patience. I made a point of explaining my reasoning in my post. The actions of Bin Laden's henchmen demonstrates their character. The hijackers frequented strip joints before 9/11. Major Nasson visited strip clubs. Anwar al-Awlaki was arrested for soliciting prostitution. What's up with this? Do these people believe their religion? I don't think so. I think the true believers in Islam are the vast peaceful member. The jihadists, like Bin Laden, are social and religious perverts.

Cite examples please.

The Muslim conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples, especially in History Books.

No, no, no, you misinterpreted my request. I don't want general history, I want a name, a quote, and a date.

I suppose that it is possible that a war could be fought for purely religious purposes but I sincerely doubt it. In fact, 99% of the wars that are claimed to be religious really had political and economic motives.

Stop agreeing with me! I've already said most wars have political or economic motives. Go read my other posts. The problem is, religion is a justification for war, so in many cases is as guilty as the 'motive'.

What, really. So you're going to layer religion on as a motive for all the other wars? Your statement makes no sense. Maybe it's a 'I just had to include something whether it made sense or not' fallacy.

[Interbane]

It seems I've been sucked into another debate with you where you cloud the facts with your delusion and rationalize things to fit your worldview. Sure, biblical morality is superior to anything modern philosophers can come up with. No wars were motivated by religion. Nobody died because of religion. Osama bin Laden was not motivated by nor justified for religious reasons to commit terrorist acts. Your delusion is unassailable.

[stahrwe]

It seems I've been sucked into another debate with you where you cloud the facts with your delusion and rationalize things to fit your worldview. Sure, biblical morality is superior to anything modern philosophers can come up with. No wars were motivated by religion. Nobody died because of religion. Osama bin Laden was not motivated by nor justified for religious reasons to commit terrorist acts. Your delusion is unassailable.

You were the one who said that Biblical morality has become antiquated and should be replaced by modern, I suppose SH morality. I questioned how, what Jesus said was part of the greatest commandment, one from Leviticus by the way, had become antiquated. Obviously it has not.

I believe that there are the equivalent of urban myths in atheism. One of the most often heard is that, 'more wars have been fought in the name of religion than any other reason.' I don't believe this is even close to being true and am challenging people to demonstrate it. SH's philosophy is patterned after this idea.

As for Muslims and terrorists I propose that the 9/11 hijackers were the 'cream of the crop' the 'best of the best' due to the complexity and skill necessary for their mission. Given that one would also expect them to be true believers, very devout so why were they visiting strip clubs and another major leader soliciting prostititutes? I propose that their true belief is not in their religion but in their politics.

As for debating, the goal is not necessarily to convert you, or me, but to share, stimulate thought, get a different perspective, and, hopefully, call attention to the flotsam and jetsam if not remove it.

[Interbane]

As for debating, the goal is not necessarily to convert you, or me, but to share, stimulate thought, get a different perspective, and, hopefully, call attention to the flotsam and jetsam if not remove it.

In your view, evolution and a 4.5 billion year old Earth are jetsam and flotsam. I have no desire to continue beating my head against the walls of your rationalizations. You are wrong about so many things, but will take them all to your grave.

[stahrwe]

As for debating, the goal is not necessarily to convert you, or me, but to share, stimulate thought, get a different perspective, and, hopefully, call attention to the flotsam and jetsam if not remove it.

In your view, evolution and a 4.5 billion year old Earth are jetsam and flotsam. I have no desire to continue beating my head against the walls of your rationalizations. You are wrong about so many things, but will take them all to your grave.

Time to Turtle Up.