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Yes. Evolution.

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johnson1010
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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To "ruthlessly" explain why rain falls from the sky… is not to explain God away.

Remember you claimed we humans have pretty much "stopped evolving"?
It is an important thing to remember, however, that all of these things were once attributed to the actions of gods. People could not think of a way in which these things could happen except through the magical intervention of a deity, often with the intent of helping or punishing people.

The fact that god(s) have been ousted from these hidey holes does not bode well for the current set of gaps. As I said before, it is cleaner to summarily clear god out of these holes so we can get a better look into the darkness.

The mechanism of evolution hasn’t stopped working on humans, but humans have attempted to keep themselves alive when otherwise they would have fallen victim to various natural selection pressures. A great many of us would probably have fallen to starvation if not for the invention of modern agriculture. So while the traits are still randomly popping into the gene pool which would allow some percentage of us to not only survive, but perhaps thrive on less nutritious food, and in lower quantities, there is no selective pressure pushing our species as a whole in that direction.

I don’t think we’ve stopped evolving, but the old pressures have less leverage on us than they used to, so I have a hard time imagining what our current selective pressures are, and where they are pushing us.
The first question is "What IS gravity?"
Is our understanding of gravity clear or vague on this matter?
Don't get silly on me by quacking "saying god did it is not an explanation." I'd like you to demonstrate your non-vague explanatory skills about gravity
Why don’t you quack your non-vague definition of what faith is at us? I asked for that a while back and though you do love to imagine us dodging around your every question, I have seen little come from you in the form of direct answers. You mentioned before you thought my definition of faith was “diluted”. Care to give it a go?

As to what gravity is, science is working on it. When you ask a question about what something is you can usually define it in terms of something else we are familiar with. Apples are fruit (comparing the item to a vast database of similar objects). They are composed of organic molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of sub-atomic particles, which are made of quarks (in some cases)…

Now, what are quarks? Here we are at a stumbling block. We can say that they are LIKE some other kinds of particles, and not like others, such as bosons. But to really explain what they are we have to explain what they do. We discuss the fundamental properties of the Quark and by that explanation have encompassed the “quark-ness” of quarks.

Gravity appears to be such a topic. It appears to be a fundamental force, not comprised of anything, and not exactly like anything else either. There are similarities we can discuss such as the square of the distance rule, and how that is shared by electromagnetism. But we are left to explain the properties of gravity and these properties must represent what gravity IS, because it is not easily compared to other things.

Generally speaking, gravity is an attractive force that changes inversely proportional to the square of the distance and attracts all things with mass. You have to know the definitions of words like force and mass but that’s about the best we can do so far.

As far as I know, there is not any “deeper” understanding of what gravity is. People are working on that, trying to figure out what it is exactly about mass which creates this effect. This may not be satisfying to you, it might not fill you with inspiration, or purpose, but it is not required to be satisfying.
Your faith in science is based strictly on elementary explanations of behaviors of natural phenomena and nothing more.
This is what I was saying above. Things are defined in relationship to other things. The most fundamental explanation of what a thing is, is what a thing does. What else do you expect, and why do you imagine that it would constitute “more”? And it should be noted you do not need faith in science. There are plenty of good reasons to have confidence in science.
You might be stuck with the question "What is the nature of reality" before you can confidently assert that the gaps filled with scientific understanding have done away, or will do away with the question of god.
We have a pretty good handle on “what is the nature of reality”, but I guess that depends on what you mean by the question. We can describe it in pretty good detail up to a few micro-seconds after what people call “the big bang”. We can extrapolate pretty confidently billions and billions of years into the future to the full victory of entropy. What happens before and after that we don’t have enough data to determine. But from the first few microseconds to the failure of the forces of nature in the mind-bogglingly distant future seems like a pretty good start.

Why, what do you have along these lines? Does wishing really hard that god was real give you any insight?
Are you going to make a claim we will one day know everything about everything?
That's a claim of omniscience, no doubt based on omnipresent observational powers and omnipotent understanding.
Nonsense. You are arguing with the phantom versions of us again. Nobody here has ever said we would know everything about everything. Nobody here has ever claimed certainty, no matter how often you try to put that on our side of the table.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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Hi Johnson and all

This is a great thread, and it is nice to see ant holding the fort for supernatural metaphysical faith.
My view is that faith can be in natural matter. Matter evolves by the laws of physics, with energy producing counter-entropic complexity, such as life on earth. I have complete faith, based on scientific evidence and logic, that everything is made of matter, and there is no supernatural realm of the type posited by traditional metaphysics. But that does not mean metaphysics can be discarded. Physics alone does not explain what we mean by basic concepts such as nature, reality and truth, which serve to bring physical knowledge into a coordinated linguistic understanding.

Nature, reality and truth are metaphysical ideas, as are good, love, beauty and just, because our understanding of them is premised on axiomatic assumptions. Science holds as an axiom that natural reality truly exists. Proving this axiom that reality exists relies on assumptions about necessary conditions of experience. If we hold the existence of reality as axiomatic we treat it as certain for practical and theoretical purposes, as a necessary condition of our lived experience. Science assumes as certain axiomatic truth that reality exists and our senses give us contact with nature.
johnson1010 wrote:
To "ruthlessly" explain why rain falls from the sky… is not to explain God away. … Remember you claimed we humans have pretty much "stopped evolving"?
…these things were once attributed to the actions of gods. People could not think of a way in which these things could happen except through the magical intervention of a deity, often with the intent of helping or punishing people.
What caught my eye here was the question of whether humans are evolving. Obviously yes, and fast. For example we are discarding magic and applying science, especially regarding climate and weather. In the last millennium we have established a globally coordinated polity in which many traditional practices have been discarded or amended. Jared Diamond’s book The World Until Yesterday is an excellent primer for this question of human evolution, including to what extent cultural evolution may have a genetic component.
johnson1010 wrote: The mechanism of evolution hasn’t stopped working on humans, but humans have attempted to keep themselves alive when otherwise they would have fallen victim to various natural selection pressures. A great many of us would probably have fallen to starvation if not for the invention of modern agriculture. So while the traits are still randomly popping into the gene pool which would allow some percentage of us to not only survive, but perhaps thrive on less nutritious food, and in lower quantities, there is no selective pressure pushing our species as a whole in that direction.
The shift from hunter-gatherer bands to settled agriculture constitutes an evolutionary step in human life. Traits that are adaptive for bands and tribes are not adaptive for states. The evolution of the state as the basis of peace has shifted the drivers of change for human evolution.

These days, the selective pressures pushing our whole species are a combination of traditional instinct and modern intelligence. We use our brains to adapt to our environment, and whoever has the most surviving children increases their genetic presence. We also use instinct to adapt, but often this is maladaptive such as the plague of fat drowning America.
johnson1010 wrote: I don’t think we’ve stopped evolving, but the old pressures have less leverage on us than they used to, so I have a hard time imagining what our current selective pressures are, and where they are pushing us.
The main current selective pressure is the need to transition to a sustainable energy source. Failing that, humans are extinct. CO2 is our Yucatan meteor.
johnson1010 wrote:
The first question is "What IS gravity?" Is our understanding of gravity clear or vague on this matter? Don't get silly on me by quacking "saying god did it is not an explanation." I'd like you to demonstrate your non-vague explanatory skills about gravity
Why don’t you quack your non-vague definition of what faith is at us? I asked for that a while back and though you do love to imagine us dodging around your every question, I have seen little come from you in the form of direct answers. You mentioned before you thought my definition of faith was “diluted”. Care to give it a go?
I know the question is to ant, but my take is that faith is certainty. We have faith in what we see as so certain as not to be open to question. My faith is in natural reality, but a lot of faith is in unreality. Faith is closely related to loyalty, vision and trust, the qualities that enable community through morality, ritual and ceremony. Without faith, we are in a purely intellectual rather than social existence. Sociality requires some basic framework of faith for any shared purpose.
johnson1010 wrote: Gravity appears to be … a fundamental force, …
Johnson, please have a read of a thread I started on “Is Gravity a Force?” The answer is no.
johnson1010 wrote: Generally speaking, gravity is an attractive force that changes inversely proportional to the square of the distance and attracts all things with mass. You have to know the definitions of words like force and mass but that’s about the best we can do so far.
Not quite. Bend your mind around the thread I linked on Is Gravity a Force? The first answer explains quite simply that the prevailing theory of gravity, General Relativity, does not consider gravity as a force. Gravity is caused by a warp of space caused by matter, the result of a change in space geometry. Gravity as a force has its foundation in Newtonian Physics.

Many true believers in the force of gravity find this Einstein stuff hard to understand, as do I.
johnson1010 wrote: As far as I know, there is not any “deeper” understanding of what gravity is.
Relativity provides a deeper understanding of gravity than the classical Newtonian mechanics of force. Newton is fine for explaining things on earth. As soon as we get into the sublunary realm of GPS satellites we cannot use the ‘gravity is force’ notion because it is inadequate to produce accurate GPS road maps. Past the sublunary realm of the global positioning system, looking at the universe, astronomy has found that lensing, dark matter, dark energy etc cannot be explained by the Newtonian cosmology of gravity as force.
johnson1010 wrote: you do not need faith in science. There are plenty of good reasons to have confidence in science.
Johnson, my objection is not logical, but rather social and political. Scientists can understand your distinction between confidence and certainty but ordinary people cannot. They need to be told what to think so they can ‘set and forget’. What is needed is for ordinary people to shift the ground of their faith from a supernatural myth to natural science. That means having faith that science provides an accurate description of the universe. The least chink of doubt, and when you say to a mountain ‘remove hence to yonder place’ it will stay firmly stuck in position. 
johnson1010 wrote: We have a pretty good handle on “what is the nature of reality”, but I guess that depends on what you mean by the question.
You might have a good handle on reality Johnson, but most people don’t. Half of Americans think the universe is less than ten thousand years old. This is a frightening sign of how false faith has corrupted mythic popular vision into a supernatural trance that is alienated from real nature. People in positions of trust and leadership should not promulgate false claims about the nature of reality.
johnson1010 wrote: We can describe it in pretty good detail up to a few micro-seconds after what people call “the big bang”. We can extrapolate pretty confidently billions and billions of years into the future to the full victory of entropy. What happens before and after that we don’t have enough data to determine. But from the first few microseconds to the failure of the forces of nature in the mind-bogglingly distant future seems like a pretty good start.
Your myth of the victory of entropy over complexity reminds me of the war in heaven between Michael (complexity) and Satan (entropy). I stand on the side of the angels, despite accelerating expansion. Eventually all the galaxies will stop moving apart, long after they have fallen into their black holes. Then springs and bogs and rivulets and brooks and streams and rivers and fractal torrents of galaxies will flow back together until in googilions of years they will form a single vast black hole, a lagoon holding all matter, which then will eventually destabilise with an earth-shattering kaboom to produce a new universe. Just my myth.
johnson1010 wrote: Nobody here has ever claimed certainty
I think I have previously discussed the relation between confidence and certainty with you Johnson? In fact, I am certain of that.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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Jared Diamond’s book The World Until Yesterday is an excellent primer for this question of human evolution, including to what extent cultural evolution may have a genetic component.
You are talking about cultural evolution here. I’m talking about allele frequencies passed through inheritance fundamentally reshaping our physiology. Biological evolution.

I know the mechanism has been working just fine on us, but I’m not sure what selective pressures in our culture are preferring now.

It’s like breeding wolves into dogs. If we make “friendly toward people” the main selective pressure then all kinds of other things which would not really be propagated in the wild suddenly have free reign. Ever see that breeding program in Russia for silver foxes? They are starting to get all kinds of different color schemes now. We aren’t breeding that IN, so much as doing nothing to stop it.
The shift from hunter-gatherer bands to settled agriculture constitutes an evolutionary step in human life. Traits that are adaptive for bands and tribes are not adaptive for states. The evolution of the state as the basis of peace has shifted the drivers of change for human evolution.
Again I think you are talking about cultural evolution, or the evolution of our society. I agree completely that these are major mile-stones and wouldn’t have a problem using the word evolution to discuss them, but I just want to distinguish the idea of “change over time” from “biological evolution” which has very specific requirements.
I know the question is to ant, but my take is that faith is certainty. We have faith in what we see as so certain as not to be open to question. My faith is in natural reality, but a lot of faith is in unreality. Faith is closely related to loyalty, vision and trust, the qualities that enable community through morality, ritual and ceremony. Without faith, we are in a purely intellectual rather than social existence. Sociality requires some basic framework of faith for any shared purpose.
Thanks, RT!
We have faith in what we see as so certain as not to be open to question.


This is probably what I’m addressing. I see there being a difference and a reason for distinction, between “not open to question” and “because look at it yourself, it is exactly how I said”.

I don’t think of object permanence as being an article of faith, for instance, even though I am otherwise certain that my chair is still here even when I’m not touching it, or looking at it.

As for faith being crucial to society, I think that is stretching quite a bit. Sure, trust is crucial, but trust is not identical with faith, and trust is informed by fact more often than faith, I would say.
Johnson, please have a read of a thread I started on “Is Gravity a Force?” The answer is no.
You are right of course, I wasn’t being as specific there as I could have been.


johnson1010 wrote:
As far as I know, there is not any “deeper” understanding of what gravity is.

Relativity provides a deeper understanding of gravity than the classical Newtonian mechanics of force.
I should get a hand slapping here, you are right, because I knew better.

Johnson, my objection is not logical, but rather social and political. Scientists can understand your distinction between confidence and certainty but ordinary people cannot. They need to be told what to think so they can ‘set and forget’. What is needed is for ordinary people to shift the ground of their faith from a supernatural myth to natural science. That means having faith that science provides an accurate description of the universe.
I think they can. I’m an ordinary person. I’m no genius, that’s for sure.

I think it is fundamentally corrosive to the process of science for people to simply have faith when the entire endeavor is to show and prove. It seems to me that the shift in thought shouldn’t be to move un-restricted faith from religion to science, but to move the demand for sound reasoning from all other every day experiences (which fridge should I buy, is this building contractor overcharging, is it safe to walk across the street) and apply it to all areas of life.

This demand for evidence is the rule of our lives. We suspend that rule in favor of a very few specific things which we put on faith instead, and that is usually because we know there is no good reason to believe them otherwise.

Why, for instance, don’t we discuss our preference for every day things in terms of faith? Why do we tell people reasons when we want to convince them of a position?

You might have a good handle on reality Johnson, but most people don’t. Half of Americans think the universe is less than ten thousand years old.
I dig what you are saying here, and I really meant to say “we”, as in humanity, have ready answers to the way the universe really is. We also have bad answers which are clearly false. My hope is always simply to point out that faith in a myth is a poor substitute for the real knowledge that’s waiting out there. And people don’t even have to work that hard to find it! It can be hard to understand relativity, but at least we don’t each individually have to try to discover it for ourselves! The path through that bramble patch has already been beaten flat! Big, profound answers to what the world is like are laying around us and most people seem to find every excuse not to look.


johnson1010 wrote:
Nobody here has ever claimed certainty

I think I have previously discussed the relation between confidence and certainty with you Johnson? In fact, I am certain of that.
Haha, right! RT is certain, anyway.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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The concept of God as the primary cause, outside of space and time is not replaced by hypothesis.
The concept you mention IS a hypothesis. An untestable one at that. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Russell's_Teapot

But in general, you're correct. The concept of a naturalistic deity will not be replaced by anything. It has no bearing on reality, no "impact" which makes it testable. If you claim that there is, in fact, an influence on our universe from a naturalistic deity, then such a deity is able to be detected. But I doubt you'd make such a claim. Let me know, since that is a fun and lengthy conversation.
To "ruthlessly" explain why rain falls from the sky, why the sky is blue, the grass green, what keeps our bodies from floating into space, what is the center of our solar system, our galaxy, or our universe (well, skip that last one) is not to explain God away. Your claim is yet another arrogant presumption about human understanding.


The adverb "ruthless" doesn't apply to explaining the things you mention. It applies to the advancement of explanation into territory that was previously thought to be held by religion. (ruthless explanation vs ruthless advancement.) That this excludes a naturalistic deity as you mention above doesn't refute my point. There are many areas where religion claimed to "know", but has turned out not to know.
Remember you claimed we humans have pretty much "stopped evolving"?
I don't remember that, nor do I believe it.
You are projecting explanatory power much too far in to the future. You are venturing well beyond "local inference." Your claim is not reasonable. It's really more like a giant leap of faith. I'm sorry if the word offends your "reasoning."
As I've said, it's induction, not faith. The original concept under discussion in this sub-thread was string theory, not a naturalistic deity. My reasoning applies quite well.
I'm not certain whether our understanding of gravity is clear or vague.
What do you think?
We don't yet have a full understanding of gravity. That does not mean we will never know.
I think your understanding of nature is vague.
I think it's vague because of your sensory and intellectual limitations. That includes us all, of course.
I've never claimed a full understanding. Science is provisional, always amenable to change. That is a strength, not a weakness. It is a strength for the reason you mention above; we are limited in sense and intellect. To admit our knowledge is provisional is honest.
You are being brazenly confident by claiming all gaps of understanding will be filled based on inference.
Your faith in science is based strictly on elementary explanations of behaviors of natural phenomena and nothing more.
I didn't claim all gaps of understanding will be filled based on inference. I claimed that the gap in our knowledge regarding string theory or it's eventual replacement will be filled, and I make that claim based on inductive reasoning.
You're leaping all over the place here like a frog.


I'm not, actually. You seem to have misunderstood many of my points, and ascribe claims to me that I haven't made.
Are you going to make a claim we will one day know everything about everything?
Nope. If anyone else makes such a claim, I'll be right by your side arguing against it.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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RT wrote:The main current selective pressure is the need to transition to a sustainable energy source. Failing that, humans are extinct. CO2 is our Yucatan meteor.
This selective pressure applies to ideology, not geneology. In this respect, genetics and information are distinct. Ideas can be selected for or against, at the same time that no selective pressure is applied to our genes. If you claim there is, I wonder what gene corresponds to the idea? :? It's a silly notion. The blank-slate(for the most part) phenotype of our minds can hold an infinite permutation of ideas. An evolutionary algorithm is at play in two different fields. One is the age-old genetic evolution. The newer one is the collective of information/ideas.

I know genes are informational, but I think you understand my point without needing further disambiguation here. I'm referring to two separate things, regardless of the words used.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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Interbane wrote:
RT wrote:The main current selective pressure is the need to transition to a sustainable energy source. Failing that, humans are extinct. CO2 is our Yucatan meteor.
This selective pressure applies to ideology, not geneology.
No way. A selective pressure is a factor in the environment that determines if a trait or a genetic line will continue or not. CO2 emissions are the biggest factor in our environment determining if humans will go extinct, given that business as usual is already producing disruptive climate change and it will steadily get far worse without policy reversal.

Humans are near unique in the evolution of terrestrial life in having language to understand and avoid selective dangers. On the model of baboons having different words for snake, leopard and eagle, we have different words for carbon dioxide and methane. These trace gasses are threats to our survival, but we can turn them to advantage through deliberate evolution of political systems. We can use our brains to adapt to our environment, exactly the same process as humans used over paleological time scales to evolve big brains. Big brains are for making wise decisions about how to survive.
Interbane wrote: In this respect, genetics and information are distinct. Ideas can be selected for or against, at the same time that no selective pressure is applied to our genes.
Eventually ideas apply selective genetic pressure. Diamond gives the example of state peace. Without a state enforcing peace, humans face very different selective pressures, seen in the culture of non-state societies. But at what point does this become genetic rather than just cultural? On the model of how concern for maternal health is leading to slow narrowing of hips, genetically, it must necessarily be the case that the social structure in which we live ultimately determines long term genetic success. Genes that are incompatible with their niche get weeded out by natural selection. Cultural evolution is so much faster than genetic evolution, but the two are necessarily linked.
If you claim there is, I wonder what gene corresponds to the idea? :? It's a silly notion.
The gene for avoiding threats. See leopard, hide or run away. See scientific data, adjust energy systems.
The blank-slate(for the most part) phenotype of our minds can hold an infinite permutation of ideas.
That is absurd Interbane. Our brains are finite entities on a finite planet, with permutation bounded by planetary reality. Not anything like infinite, except as rhetoric.
An evolutionary algorithm is at play in two different fields. One is the age-old genetic evolution. The newer one is the collective of information/ideas.
Response to information is central to human evolution. How we respond determines if we live or die. The new climate threat is unprecedented, but always the success has genetically gone to those who adapt to new situations. Our situation is presented to us in the form of ideas.
I know genes are informational, but I think you understand my point without needing further disambiguation here. I'm referring to two separate things, regardless of the words used.
The meme/gene boundary is blurred. A meme indicates a change in the niche, the invisible tao, which will eventually filter through to physical structures with real genetic effect, even recognising the very slow pace of genetic evolution.
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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nice goin' :)
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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I'd suggest branching off into some new threads
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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Make sure to plant a link for people who may be interested in this talk after the fact.

http://www.booktalk.org/post113751.html#p113751

Here's one of the threads created to follow up on this vein.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Yes. Evolution.

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i thought this was the best evo vid i have seen so far, for laying out a good ground work and actually explaining evolution basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7tQIB4UdiY
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