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Harry Marks
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Re: prayer

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stahrwe wrote:
Murrill wrote:
Automatic writing has nothing to do with and is in no way like prayer. Prayer is total involvement of the person in conversation with God.
I have known many people who pray, and they describe the experience as being one in which they first express themselves, and then they listen. My own practice of meditation might be similarly described: I clear my mind, suspending judgements and preconceptions, and make myself available to what might arise. I do not see this as so dramatically diffferent from Lady of Shallot's experience with automatic writing. While the approaches might vary, I suggest that the essences are quite similar. For my own practices...well, I'm not afraid of what I may see, hear, or think. I expect that is something that separates me from the Christians of my youth: They submit to a fabled being that damns and punishes and smites. Not enough love in that for me. I'll take automatic writing over empty religious ritual anyday.
I would like to know how you do the highlighted. As for taking automatic writing you have selected nothing.
It is part of the modern mentality to suppose that anything that emerges from my subconscious has equal validity with anything else that does. That the subconscious will "tell us" what is most important. While there is some truth to this, especially when the conscious understanding is seriously out of balance, it leaves out the important dimension of values (what we choose to value does matter) and the important dimension of relationship (with the people around us and with the ultimate concerns that face us in life). Thus at best it complements prayer.
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Re: prayer

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I consider meditation a time for processing & centering. My current level of resistance is apparent to me if I am distracted or making laundry lists in my head. I am considerably less than perfect at this endeavor, but I do employ some techniques that I have learned over the years: As thoughts arise I "erase" them; I engage in some "mindfulness" tools. It is a discipline, and I am more successful at some times than on others. I don't think that the conscious and subconscious are mutually exclusive, anymore than I think that the subconscious ignores values. Meditation is my opportunity to observe where I am, what matters that I might have ignored, and reminds me of what is extraneous. It is important to me, just as journaling, reading, and conversations with peers are important. I guess we all find our niche.
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Re: prayer

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An activity that works should not be dismissed by scientists just because they can't make use of the user's explanation of how it works.

I would note that the placebo effect is inherently social. And that is what is missing from your dismissive "explanation" of prayer.
My explanation isn't dismissive. Truthful, but not dismissive. I think it would be wonderful if we could do away with a majority of the damaging prescription drugs in this country. They cause as many problems as they solve. Give people prescriptions of sugar pills and tell them it's a miracle drug. I'm being serious, the placebo effect is found to constitute a majority of many antidepressants positive effects. If we could harness it consistently, the drug companies would go out of business. Part of me wants to see that happen, but another part knows there is some medicine which is far more effective than placebo, and in some cases required to live.
I repeat that it is not an instrumental activity - I don't engage in prayer for a placebo or any other "effect". I engage in prayer to dialogue with the infinite.
I understand your intent. What I'm saying is that you are not engaging in dialogue. Or, if you think you are, there is no answer. Experiments have conclusively shown prayer has no benefit above and beyond placebo, so that is the full sum of the benefit you gain. Placebo is indeed a benefit, and is actually more powerful in studies of people ingesting medicine rather than prayer. So a person taking a sugar pill will get a greater benefit than prayer. If you read through all the studies, what I am saying would jump out at you. There are many studies, though I'm sure you could do your own peer review and find variable control issues with some.

In one study, 1800 people who were about to have surgery were observed. They were split into 3 groups. Three groups are needed to account for the variables. One group wasn't prayed for at all, one group was prayed for, but not told, and the third group was prayed for and informed of the fact. Three local churches were asked to help in praying for the people going into surgery, and included first name and last initial of the person. (I would like to see a study where it is family members praying fervently at bedside, but many believe unfamiliar congregation's prayers help).

The results were that there was no benefit from prayer. In fact, a higher percentage of subject who were prayed for had complications. The provisional conclusion was that perhaps the prayer caused some sort of performance anxiety, but I'm not convinced. I would think prayer would be soothing to an individual. Either way, god didn't awake to respond to his faithful. If we added a fourth control group, those who were having surgery 75 years ago, then we would have some information on what is truly beneficial to people. That would be the scientific advancement of medicine. It is simple fact.

Here's the thing, and the basis of my worldview. I see people believe with 100% of their souls in false things all the time. They try to convince me, zealotously, of all manner of things. I'm sure you have such experiences as well. I know very well how passionately people can believe in something which is false(scientologists, harold camping, big footers). There is no doubt that these people believe they are actually perceiving evidence of their beliefs(be it talking to god or locating a thetan, or being abducted by aliens). I am a human also, with the same capacity for delusion. But I would rather not be deluded, so I choose to abide by protocols for examining my beliefs. This is the only way to avoid delusion with any amount of confidence.. It is simply good practice. Rather than blind faith, I wish to believe things that there is good reasoning for, and is at the very least not disproven by the evidence. The effect of prayer(at least the end result- the benefit), has been shown to be utterly ineffective. But I understand that it may be like dancing. It feels good in the moment, and is a practice that may benefit the person doing the prayer, in the same fashion as meditation does.
I am sorry you can make no sense of this, but may I suggest it is for the same reason you are uninterested in placebos, which is that you have donned the specs of science that deny lots of social experience as invalid.
I'm extremely interested in the placebo effect, it's fascinating. I only don the specs of science when people fail to face the facts, but I will still engage in endless speculation as long as I'm not dodging faith-based propositions left and right, because such a conversation isn't a conversation, it's preaching. You're not preaching, you're honestly trying to explain yourself. I also am more interested in social experience, but unless it's grounded in the facts, it's an open door to a false belief.
Our relationship to that which ultimately matters is there whether we like it or not
False, there is no relationship. At least, it's a one sided relationship. If I gain precisely the same benefits by praying to satan as you do to god(I don't pray to satan), then what good is your god? It is not the relationship that is real, it is the "idea" of god inside your head that "feels" real. That does not make god into a real entity or being.
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Re: prayer

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Interbane -

Like dancing is a good comparison. You may make an effort to persuade people who engage in prayer primarily instrumentally, conceiving of it as something like flipping a light switch. But you may have noticed that none of the Christians on this forum have argued from that perspective.

I am familiar with the study you mentioned and with several other recent ones. I am a regular reader of Scientific American and the Economist, and they both make an effort to watch this topic. Did you also see the one that showed that when men who pray were asked to pray for their partner it increased their sexually faithful behavior (not being distracted by other women, etc)?

You recognized that I am not preaching. Well done. I really do not care if you understand me or not - the effort to explain is rewarding to me. But you are still not getting that there are perspectives more complete than Biblical literalism and supernatural deism that can still make sense of religious activity. You say, "it is a one-sided relationship" with that which ultimately matters. Yet it is clearly a relationship between all of humanity and each of us, which is as multi-sided as one can get. And there is an added dimension in that the idea of what matters is in fact capable of creating useful thought, not only through dialogue with others, but through inner dialogue as well with whatever conceptualization of "what matters" we work with, be it the memory of our mother or the image of Dr. Laura or Judge Judy, or whatever. I think you ARE dismissive, in that when I present you with observations about this you revert to discussing whether prayer influences supernatural powers.

Talk about God is talk about what is good. Thus "what good is your God?" is the ultimate in irony. "What good is your money?" has content. "What good is your sugar pill?" has content. But "What good is your God?" is like asking, "What is melodic about music?"
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Re: prayer

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I think you ARE dismissive, in that when I present you with observations about this you revert to discussing whether prayer influences supernatural powers.
I am vocal towards this facet for a reason. It causes pain and suffering, unintentionally. I don't mean prayer causes pain and suffering. I mean; when technology can help you to a greater extent than placebo, and you instead choose to use prayer to heal, you are making a choice that results in a positive net-sum of suffering. Not you specifically, but various others who pray. To place all your chips on the supernatural(like Harold Camping) is destructive behavior, and I truly wish people wouldn't go so far. You can have all the benefits of prayer without taking it so far that you deny the reality around you. You've since said far more than enough to convince me that you don't take it that far. But the threshold is invisible, and people cross it every day without realizing it.
Yet it is clearly a relationship between all of humanity and each of us, which is as multi-sided as one can get.
I do not understand what you mean by a relationship between all of humanity and each of us. We have things in common, and I love people. But I can't fathom your words.
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Re: prayer

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Interbane wrote:
An activity that works should not be dismissed by scientists just because they can't make use of the user's explanation of how it works.

I would note that the placebo effect is inherently social. And that is what is missing from your dismissive "explanation" of prayer.
My explanation isn't dismissive. Truthful, but not dismissive. I think it would be wonderful if we could do away with a majority of the damaging prescription drugs in this country. They cause as many problems as they solve. Give people prescriptions of sugar pills and tell them it's a miracle drug. I'm being serious, the placebo effect is found to constitute a majority of many antidepressants positive effects. If we could harness it consistently, the drug companies would go out of business. Part of me wants to see that happen, but another part knows there is some medicine which is far more effective than placebo, and in some cases required to live.
I repeat that it is not an instrumental activity - I don't engage in prayer for a placebo or any other "effect". I engage in prayer to dialogue with the infinite.
I understand your intent. What I'm saying is that you are not engaging in dialogue. Or, if you think you are, there is no answer. Experiments have conclusively shown prayer has no benefit above and beyond placebo, so that is the full sum of the benefit you gain. Placebo is indeed a benefit, and is actually more powerful in studies of people ingesting medicine rather than prayer. So a person taking a sugar pill will get a greater benefit than prayer. If you read through all the studies, what I am saying would jump out at you. There are many studies, though I'm sure you could do your own peer review and find variable control issues with some.

In one study, 1800 people who were about to have surgery were observed. They were split into 3 groups. Three groups are needed to account for the variables. One group wasn't prayed for at all, one group was prayed for, but not told, and the third group was prayed for and informed of the fact. Three local churches were asked to help in praying for the people going into surgery, and included first name and last initial of the person. (I would like to see a study where it is family members praying fervently at bedside, but many believe unfamiliar congregation's prayers help).

The results were that there was no benefit from prayer. In fact, a higher percentage of subject who were prayed for had complications. The provisional conclusion was that perhaps the prayer caused some sort of performance anxiety, but I'm not convinced. I would think prayer would be soothing to an individual. Either way, god didn't awake to respond to his faithful. If we added a fourth control group, those who were having surgery 75 years ago, then we would have some information on what is truly beneficial to people. That would be the scientific advancement of medicine. It is simple fact.

1) the Bible does not say that family members prayers are more effective than someone esles. The Bible addresses what prayers are effective, I will leave you to find the verse* if you are interested, but a Vann diagraham would show that other prayers canot be assumed to be less effective.

2) Bayes was a minister, just an interesting sidenote.

3) Nice anecdote for the study. How about we suspend believing your claims until you provide a link to the full study. I would like to see the protocols, data, everything.
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Re: prayer

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http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

Scientific Research of Prayer: Can the Power of Prayer Be Proven?

By Debra Williams, D.D.

1999 PLIM Retreat, (c) 1999 PLIM REPORT, Vol. 8 #4

Theme: Inner Journey, Part 5

Feel free to copy and circulate this article for non-commercial purposes provided the Web site and author are mentioned.

See Related Articles in MEDITATION AND THE POWERS OF THE MIND



Introduction

Throughout time, the power of prayer has been questioned by science. The analytical mind of the scientist calls for proof of the existence of a higher being. These scientists, both the faithful and nonbelievers alike, have produced studies into the affects of prayer on our physical as well as spiritual well being. Although most of us, who possess the belief that prayer can and does work, do not require physical, quantitative proof of the power of prayer, it is interesting to read the results of these studies.

Was a scientific study of prayer and its effect on heart patients done?

One of the most quoted scientific studies of prayer was done between August of 1982 and May of 1983. 393 patients in the San Francisco General Hospital’s Coronary Care Unit participated in a double blind study to assess the therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer. Patients were randomly selected by computer to either receive or not receive intercessory prayer. All participants in the study, including patients, doctors, and the conductor of the study himself remained blind throughout the study, To guard against biasing the study, the patients were not contacted again after it was decided which group would be prayed for, and which group would not.

It was assumed that although the patients in the control group would not be prayed for by the participants in the study, that others-family members, friends etc., would likely pray for the health of at least some of the members of the control group. There was no control over this factor. Meanwhile all of the members of the group that received prayer would be prayed for by not only those associated with the study, but by others as well.

The results of the study are not surprising to those of us who believe in the power of prayer. The patients who had received prayer as a part of the study were healthier than those who had not. The prayed for group had less need of having CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) performed and less need for the use of mechanical ventilators. They had a diminished necessity for diuretics and antibiotics, less occurrences of pulmonary edema, and fewer deaths. Taking all factors into consideration, these results can only be attributed to the power of prayer.

Did prayer lower blood pressure?

The August 31, 1998 issue of Jet Magazine questioned whether prayer could lower blood pressure in high blood pressure sufferers, Again the obvious conclusion was reached. The magazine reported of a study conducted by Duke University Medical Center in Durham, NC. This study had over 4,000 participants over the age of 65. The study found that those who pray and attend religious services on a weekly basis, especially those between the ages of 65 and 74, had lower blood pressure than their counterparts who did not pray or attend religious services. They found that the more religious the person, particularly those who prayed or studied the Bible weekly, the lower the blood pressure. According to the study these people were forty percent less likely to have high diastolic pressure or diastolic hypertension than these were who did not attend religious services, pray, or study the Bible.

Dr. David B. Larson, president of the National Institute for Health Care Research in Rockville, MD, who co-authored the study, also says that prayer can lower high blood pressure. "The at-risk population of people with illnesses, such as the elderly seem to be helped if they have faith and religious commitment." Dr. Larson states: "Faith brings a calming state which helps decrease nervousness and anxiety with coping with day to day stress."

How does prayer effect people who lack health care?

In the Essence Magazine May 1997 issue, Allison Abner writes that African-Americans have historically turned to faith in times of illness and other crises. She cited Luisah Teish who states: "Because of limited access to quality health care and our distrust of the medical establishment we have occasionally relied on spiritual healing through such practices as prayer and the laying on of hands, Most of us, at some time have used prayer chanting or proverbs as ways to guide, direct, and heal ourselves." "Now," states Allison, "Our beliefs are being backed by medical research," Science is setting out to prove what most of the faithful already know--prayer does work.

Has a prayer study been done on the life of twins?

The December 1998 issue of Mc Call’s Magazine raised the question: How does prayer heal? The article notes a study done at the Virginia Commonwealth University Medical College of Virginia in Richmond, which studied 1,902 twins. They found that those who were committed to their spiritual lives tended to have less severe depression and a lower risk of addiction to cigarettes or alcohol. The healthful lifestyles of the spiritually rich and faithful clearly contribute to their well being, They tend not to smoke or drink or not do either excessively. Their marriages are more stable and their spiritual communities form a network that can catch and support people when they are ill.

What effect does prayer and religion have on life?

To delve into religious attitudes and their impact on health, Koenig and his co-researcher, Kenneth Paragament, Ph.D., a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, studied 577 hospital patients age 55 and older. One 98-year-old woman with pneumonia and congestive heart failure looked upon her illness as God’s plan for her. She prayed often for the health and well being of her family and friends. These attitudes were associated with a serene response to stress and low levels of depression. All signs of well being that nurture joy in living might even extend one’s life.

While positive feelings toward a higher power seemed to foster well being, negative thoughts about a deity had the opposite effect. For example, a woman in her late 50’s with lung cancer left her church in her 20’s, became involved with drugs, and now feels her illness must be a sign of divine disapproval. She got poorer scores on tests that measured quality of life and psychological health than the 98-year-old woman.

What do atheists think about prayer?

Noted atheist Dan Barker, a spokesperson for the Freedom from Religion Foundation says the findings of the above research are no big surprise. Prayer and religious beliefs can have a placebo effect, just like a sugar pill. Barker, who was once a Christian Fundamentalist preacher before developing serious doubts about his religion, states that one of the strongest factors in recovery from an illness is a sense of connectedness with a community and people who care about you. Even if we mumble our prayers only when we are ill or if there is no God to hear them, the new research indicated that religious thoughts could help to heal.

Dr. Larry Dossey writes about the placebo effect mentioned earlier by Dan Barker and physicians who have looked at the tremendous amount of scientific studies on prayer. As Dr. Dossey states: "That is difficult to do considering that bacteria, fungi, and germinating seeds are not generally considered to be susceptible to suggestion."

Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.

What effect does prayer have on microorganisms?

Dr. Dossey, in his book, Be Careful What You Pray For, looks closely at experiments with microorganisms. He states, "Skeptics who do not believe in the effects of distant intentions say that any observed result must be due to the expectation of the subject- or the power of belief and thought." Dossey argues that if bacteria respond to outside intentions by growing more slowly when prayed over, than control groups not receiving prayer, then one cannot dismiss this result by attributing it to negative suggestion.

Bacteria presumably do not think positively or negatively. Another major advantage of microorganisms in studies of distant mental intentions has to do with the control group. If the effects of intercessory prayer, for example, are being assessed in a group of humans who have a particular illness, it is difficult to establish a pure control group that does not receive prayer. The reason is that sick human beings generally pray for themselves; or outsiders pray for them, thus contaminating the control group, which by definition should not receive the treatment being evaluated.

In studies involving microbes, this notorious "Problem of Extraneous Prayer" is totally overcome because one can be reasonably certain that the bacteria, fungi, or yeast in a control group will not pray for themselves. And that their fellow microbes will not pray for them.

If the study involved negative intentions instead of positives, the advantages remain the same. The thoughts of microorganisms do not influence its outcome.

Jean Barry, a physician-researcher in Bordeaux, France, chooses to work with a destructive fungus, Rhizoctonia Solani. He asked 10 people to try to inhibit its growth merely through their intentions at a distance of 1.5 meter.

The experiment involved control Petri dishes with fungi that were not influenced in addition to those that were. The laboratory conditions were carefully controlled regarding the genetic purity of the fungi and the composition of the culture medium, the relative humidity, and the conditions of temperature and lighting.

The control petri dishes and the influenced dishes were treated identically, except for the negative intentions directed toward the latter. A person who was blind to the details of the experiment handled various manipulations. The influences simply took their stations at the 1.5 meters and were free to act as they saw fit for their own concentration. For 15 minutes each subject was assigned five experimental and five control dishes. Of the ten subjects three to six subjects worked during a session, and there were nine sessions.

Measurement of the fungi colony on the Petri dish was obtained by outlining the boundary of the colony on a sheet of thin paper. Again, someone who did not know the aim of the experiment or the identity of the Petri dishes did this. The outlines were then cut out and weighed under condition of constant temperature and humidity. When the growth in 195 experimental dishes was compared to their corresponding controls, it was significantly retarded in 151 dishes. The possibility that these results could be explained by chance was less than one in a thousand.

Dr. Daniel I. Benor, who has evaluated all the known experiments in the field of distant healing in his landmark work healing research, calls this study "Highly significant."

Does physical distance effect prayer?

The researchers William H. Tedder and Melissa L. Monty from the University of Tennessee replicated the experiment. The goal of this study was to inhibit the growth of the fungus from the distance of one to fifteen miles. Two groups participated. Group one was made up of Tedder and six others who knew him and frequently interacted with him over a year and a half. Group 2 consisted of 8 volunteers who either did not know Tedder or did not interact with him frequently.

When the growth differential between the experimental and control dishes were compared, group one was highly successful. The likelihood of explaining their results by chance were less than 3 in 100,000. Group two was less successful. Their likelihood of a chance explanation was 6 in 100. Why was group one more successful? The researchers theorized that because of their established rapport with Tedder they might have had greater expectation and more motivation of a positive outcome than group two had.

In a post-experiment questionnaire, the group one subjects indeed responded more positively to questions about how they perceived their ability to inhibit the fungal cultures at a distance. Note: This is a clear example of faith in prayer verses doubt.

The fact that prayer is non local, that it functions at a distance, and that spatial separation does not diminish the affect means that it does not have to be intrusive. There is cross-cultural evidence that prayer does work. The factors that seem to affect the outcome of these studies are qualifies of consciousness, like caring, compassion, empathy, and love. When you take these qualities away the outcome of the study is changed. In, fact according to Dr. Dossey, if you flip these "empathetic, warm feelings" to the negative, frequently the subject is affected. In experiments a bacterium died and plants withered when subjected to the negative influence.

Conclusion

These studies have shown conclusive evidence of the power of prayer. Time after time the outcomes of these tests have shown the reality of the force of a higher being and our ability to communicate with Him.

We have also learned from viewing the results of these studies that the expectations we have while praying factor into the outcome of our prayers. Though the faithful will always believe that there need not be any physical evidence of the power and effects of prayer, science has come a long way toward showing just that-prayer is real, and it works.



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Re: prayer

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3) Nice anecdote for the study. How about we suspend believing your claims until you provide a link to the full study. I would like to see the protocols, data, everything.
The experiment I offhandedly mentioned was done in 2006, which is 7 years after the article you posted. Why don't you look it up for yourself.
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Re: prayer

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Interbane wrote:
3) Nice anecdote for the study. How about we suspend believing your claims until you provide a link to the full study. I would like to see the protocols, data, everything.
The experiment I offhandedly mentioned was done in 2006, which is 7 years after the article you posted. Why don't you look it up for yourself.
It was your baby, you post the link to the pictures.

It really doesn't matter though. I don't understand the validity of the scientific approach in this case. You are presumably attempting a 'double-blind' experiment, ok, the subjects and the evaluators are ignorant of who is getting what coverage. But, God isn't, He's aware of the experiment but more importantly, He has a plan for each patient. He is not going to change that plan. Further, how do we know what the best outcome for a given patient is going to be in advance. I have shown how logic is too flawed to evaluate God. Why do you expect the scientific method to be any less flawed. Suppose you had God with you for an hour. How would you test His omnipotence; ask Him to create another universe? What about His omniscience; have Him name cards before you turn it over? It seems to me that the type of 'experiment' you propose is flawed and will be inconclusive. The real 'experiment' is to look back on the history of the Church; to HONESTLY evaluate that history. Current atheists are obsessed with the dark events of that history, and there are plenty, but it is DISHONEST to exclude the overwhelming good that the Church has done.
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Re: prayer

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I have shown how logic is too flawed to evaluate God.
Where you exposed your inability to see the difference between the objective referrent and your own belief. We have never used logic to examine god. We've used logic to examine the idea of god, and that is precisely where logic should be used(for the tenth time). There is nothing to establish that god is real. The only thing we have to work with is what people believe. These beliefs can be examined using logic.


Back to prayer. I don't have to prove a negative to you. Studies have shown that prayer doesn't work. My question is, why do you believe it does work? If you say it's due to the placebo effect, I'll agree with you. If you say god's plan was to not answer prayers during this experiment, then who is to blame? (no one, including the experimenters) Just as he made it conclusively look as though life on earth evolved. Your god sure doesn't want you to believe in him, it's a good thing you have faith.
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