Fiction selections needed for Sep./Oct. discussion

[President Camacho]

I missed that it won the nobel... I'm in for drum.

If we agree on this we need to address which version to get early on.

[NY152]

I know you were all joking. I just wanted to express myself about Science Fiction. I kind of get like that. The Tin Drum does kind of cool though.

[Genocide]

"The Tin Drum"
Gunter Grass

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/produc ... 55&s=books

"When Günter Grass published The Tin Drum in 1959, it was as if German literature had been granted a new beginning after decades of linguistic and moral destruction. Within the pages of this, his first novel, Grass re-created the lost world from which his creativity sprang: Danzig, his home town, as he remembered it from the years of his infancy before the catastrophe of war. Here he comes to grips with the enormous task of reviewing contemporary history by recalling the disavowed and the forgotten: the victims, losers, and lies that people wanted to forget because they had once believed in them. The unforgettable Oskar Matzerath is an intellectual whose critical approach is childishness, a one-man carnival, dadaism in action in everyday German provincial life just when this small world becomes involved in the sanity of the great world surrounding it. It is not too audacious to assume that The Tin Drum will become one of the enduring literary works of the twentieth century."-- The Swedish Academy, awarding Günter Grass the Nobel Prize for Literature, 1999

The Tin Drum uses savage comedy and a stiff dose of magical realism to capture not only the madness of war, but also the black cancer at the heart of humanity that allows such degradations to occur. Grass wields his humor like a knife--yes, he'll make you laugh, but he'll make you bleed, as well. There have been many novels written about World War II, but only a handful can truly be called great; The Tin Drum, without a doubt, is one. --Alix Wilber

Sounds good.

[froglipz]

I'm in...

[bleachededen]

I am NOT in.

I was also going to make a comment about this perhaps not being the right forum for me if we're going to scoff at anything that wasn't written at least 100 years ago or deals with anything out of the ordinary, but NY152 did it for me (thanks for sparing me the anger, your rage cooled mine down ), so now I can just respond like a rational forum member instead of the monster I might have been.

The Tin Drum doesn't really sound like something I'd want to read, regardless of what genre I happen to gravitate toward. And Camacho, I know you're being funny, but sometimes I think you really should hold back a little; some of the things you say or the way you come off is starting to get a little offensive. People have breaking points, you know.

Suzanne, science fiction does not mean ridiculous, non-literary fluff pieces, and it most certainly doesn't ONLY call for comic books. Some of the best, most celebrated, and most popular authors wrote science fiction, and whether you know it or not, some of the most award winning novels are science fiction. Think of it this way: Everything written before 1900 that involved any kind of mechanics or A.I. or computer/vehicle technology beyond horse drawn wagons and telegraphs was science fiction, or what we now sub-classify as "steam punk." Jules Verne is always considered to be among the greats in the literary canon, and everything he wrote was science fiction. Same for H.G. Wells, also mostly for Conan Doyle (Sherlock Holmes stories had an awful lot of strange devices and potions in them, didn't they?). What do you think Frankenstein is? How about Gulliver's Travels? Slaughterhouse-Five? Some of these books fall into many top 100 books of all time lists, but we call them "science fiction" here on BookTalk and suddenly no one wants to read it?! Do we have to put A Midsummer Night's Dream and The Tempest in the fantasy section because they contain fairies? What about the potion Juliet takes to feign death, a potion so potent that it renders the pulse imperceptible and slows breathing down to almost nothing but still keeps the drinker alive? To my knowledge, this miracle drug STILL does not exist, and is used in many modern science fiction movies as a sneaky trick even in the near or distant future. Is Romeo and Juliet science fiction now?

A book that happens to be science fiction isn't automatically undesirable or even that "nerdy," just like a "classic" or "award-winner" isn't always worth its accolades. I really thought people here would be above snap judgments and petty mocking. I personally hate anything that generally falls under the category of "written by Jane Austen," but I'm not laughing at anyone who does like Jane Austen or making snide remarks about the entire category of writing she falls under. I really do think we're better than that. I know we're all well-read and know our stuff, some more in one category than another, but we don't have to be snobs. Many offended comments were made last time we chose books because a few people mentioned that they didn't want to read the "Japanese books" that had been suggested, in complete innocence and honesty about particular books, and here we are this time and more people than those who said anything last time are mocking not only people's particular book suggestions, but the entire category those books could be labeled as, and trying to rule them out as potential candidates. I find that to be unfair.

What if I present a sci-fi book and pretend it's not sci-fi? Maybe Wuthering Heights takes place on the moon, but they don't have to mention it in the story because we know that it takes place on the moon. Does this make it any less desirable to any of you that it's now a sci-fi category book, because it takes place on the moon instead of Earth? Many of you will say it is still good, or it still sucks, but it won't have anything to do with the fact that it's a sci-fi book.

Perhaps we should decide what we want to read by reading the synopses and themes of suggested books instead of ruling out an entire class of books because they are known to be one thing or another. If we didn't break it down into categories, it would all just be fiction anyway, so why don't we look at it that way before turning our noses up at something just because we've given it a particular label? That's what I usually try to do, but I'm becoming aware of how extremely "different" I am lately, so who the hell knows.

I will say that I don't want to read anything I've already read, and I don't want to read anything that was written more than 100 years ago. I feel like spending some time in the present or at least recent past (or even future), and I've had enough "classics" for one year. I'm not far into the Heinlein, so I can easily put it away until further notice, so we can take that one out of the running, since a few people have mentioned they've already read it. I will now check my Amazon.com wishlist and see what books I want to read but don't already have and suggest one to the group. I really don't want to be out of the loop on the main fiction discussion again, and having a second book didn't really work as well as I'd hoped, and maybe that's my fault for helping choose a book that most people thought was "light reading" and that didn't generate as much discussion as I thought it potentially would.

Let's all go into this with open minds, and maybe we can all learn something new and like something we never thought we'd like. Does that sound doable?

[President Camacho]

Warning: this is what happens when you don't get your own way. I'm going to start nicknaming you Violet.

Just make your book suggestion and stop throwing a tantrum. No one is outlawing or boycotting science fiction.

[Genocide]

*sigh*

I think we're all just a little on edge right now? Either way...

This is usually done by majority rule, Bleached, you know that. Maybe when something like this happens the minority can kind of form like a side forum discussion? Isn't that what happens anyway? What would you like to read? Maybe a few of us could do more than one (or two) books at a time.

[bleachededen]

Warning: this is what happens when you don't get your own way. I'm going to start nicknaming you Violet.

Just make your book suggestion and stop throwing a tantrum. No one is outlawing or boycotting science fiction.

I believe the name you are looking for is Veruca, and unless something's changed in the past 24 hours, members are permitted to speak their minds in these forums. I also don't appreciate being insulted, another thing I didn't think was tolerated on this site. It isn't fair for some people to be able to express their views and others are not just because they don't agree with the former. You've given alien conspiracy theorists better treatment than this, and I won't lie and say I'm not incredibly offended. I don't personally insult you, why would you do so to me?

I also don't know what you mean by "majority rules," Gen, because for several pages the majority was headed toward science fiction until several books were brought up that have already been read by many members, and once those were ruled out, all we were left with was the only book actually formally suggested, which isn't majority rule but winning by default, which I don't think is the preferred method for book selection here. I'm sorry I didn't suggest an alternative book faster, but that thing called life that involves eating and drinking and doing things that aren't computer related had some important demands on my time, so I had to take care of them.

Most of this thread was spent suggesting books we've already read half-heartedly, and then of some members making fun of others' choices/where the suggestion was heading. I'll be suggesting another book within the next hour, but I certainly hope personal politics aren't going to start taking over the book selections here, because I'd be pretty disappointed if that happened. I really think this site's better than that.

However, I have been known to be wrong.

[bleachededen]

Here is the suggestion I promised.

***

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ
by Philip Pullman

On Amazon: amazon.com/Good-Jesus-Scoundrel-Christ- ... 41WJRGXAO1

From Amazon.com:

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is the remarkable new piece of fiction from best-selling and famously atheistic author Philip Pullman. By challenging the events of the gospels, Pullman puts forward his own compelling and plausible version of the life of Jesus, and in so doing, does what all great books do: makes the reader ask questions.

In Pullman’s own words, “The story I tell comes out of the tension within the dual nature of Jesus Christ, but what I do with it is my responsibility alone. Parts of it read like a novel, parts like history, and parts like a fairy tale; I wanted it to be like that because it is, among other things, a story about how stories become stories.”

Written with unstinting authority, The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is a pithy, erudite, subtle, and powerful book by a controversial and beloved author. It is a text to be read and reread, studied and unpacked, much like the Good Book itself.

Reviews from other sources on Amazon.com:

“Inspiring . . . Again and again, [Pullman] displays a marvelous sense of the elemental power of Jesus’s instructions and parables. Even when he transforms the canonical stories to match his atheist perspective, he emphasizes the basic Christian theme of universal love. . . . The action moves toward a conclusion that’s inevitable but still startling and moving. Yes, some Christians will be offended by this book . . . but any honest reader will find here a brisk and bracing story of profound implications. And it’s bound to send some readers back to the Bible, looking more closely at Jesus’s words and especially at all those other words crowded around Him.”—The Washington Post

“[Philip Pullman is] one of the finest British writers of his generation. . . . The attention-grabbing title alone—The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ—has been enough to rouse his enemies, and reinforce his image as a church-baiting atheist who’s beyond redemption. . . . Yet this isn’t the indiscriminate anger of a proselytizing atheist. Pullman is too fair-minded. . . . Love his answers or not, Pullman’s honesty is hard to hate.”—Newsweek

“The erudite fantasy author, Philip Pullman, makes explicit his complaint against Christian dogma with [this] challenging deconstruction of the Gospels.”
—Entertainment Weekly

“[With] His Dark Materials, his masterpiece trilogy . . . Pullman has written the most thrilling and imaginative novels in a generation. . . . The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is a masterfully timed book, arriving just as the Catholic Church—Pullman’s enemy No. 1—convulses over priestly child abuse and papal cover-ups. . . . Give Pullman high marks for moxie: How many writers would dare to try to rewrite—no, to repair—the most famous, most sacred story ever written?”—Slate

“Imaginative and thought-provoking . . . A compelling portrait of Jesus . . . [Pullman] is asking readers to move beyond theology and religion. As a literary work, Pullman’s story examines perspective and how it influences storytelling. [He] provides a superb example of how history relies on narrative and narrative relies on point of view. . . . This is, at its core, a book about the power of storytelling and storytellers. . . . The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ asks us to read and then to think—really think—about what we have read, and that is precisely what we all should do.”—Fort Worth Star-Telegram

“Thought-provoking . . . Add to [Pullman’s] passion his considerable gifts as a storyteller, and you have the ingredients for a powerful treatment of a familiar story. . . . There is no lack of . . . inventiveness . . . but it is always framed by Pullman’s keen awareness of the gospel narratives. He knows just how much of a revered story needs to remain intact in order to make its metamorphosis compelling. . . . Pullman gives us an affecting portrait of faith in extremis, of a man continuing to pray even as he doubts there is any auditor to his prayers.”—Garret Keizer, Barnes & Noble Reviews

“Compelling and challenging . . . The writing is crisp-lyrical . . . precise . . . Successful in showing how all the contradictions of a life can become distorted, so that the most important lessons disappear into history.”—Jacob Schraer, Portland Mercury

“In The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ, we have what is both a perfect and perverse pairing: Philip Pullman and the ‘myth’ of Jesus Christ.”—The Globe and Mail

“Incendiary . . . A small gem or, given its explosive story and exquisite artistry, a hand grenade made by Faberge. Pullman is a craftsman of the highest order.”--Sunday Times

“Provokingly bold . . . Pullman’s rebel scripture belongs in a strong tradition of its own.”—The Independent

“Pullman is a supreme storyteller who . . . has done the story [of the Gospels] a service by reminding us of its extraordinary power to provoke and disturb.”—The Telegraph

“A wonderfully fresh reworking of the Gospel stories [concerned with] extricating what is ethically beautiful and of permanent value in Jesus’s teachings from the religious institutions that fallibly mediate and self-servingly distort them.. . . . Pullman’s imaginative and highly thought-provoking innovation . . . is told with a self-effacing, yet incisive limpidity. . . . [The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is] a work of genuine discretion—deeply involved and involving, but with a great instinct for what to leave tacit.”—The Independent

“A simple, powerful, knowing little book . . . Like a small grenade, it will ricochet uncomfortably around the mind of any Christian believer for some time to come.”—Financial Times

“[The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is] Pullman at his very best, limpid and economical. . . . Pullman leaves the Christian reader with a genuine paradox to ponder.”—The Guardian

“Told in simple, unadorned prose that is nonetheless beautifully effective, The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ traces the familiar journey toward the cross and makes it fresh. . . . Pullman’s retelling of the central story in western civilization provides a brilliant new interpretation that is also a thought-provoking reflection on the process of how stories come into existence and accrue their meanings.”—Sunday Times

“A fast-paced little parable that puts a common sense tweak to a number of the miracles, while reminding us how much of the Gospels is devoted to social justice and compassion.”—Sacramento News & Review

“Short but ambitious, exhilarating . . . [The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ] mixes Christian mythology with speculative fiction. . . . Pullman approaches his biblical source material with respect.”—Winnipeg Free Press

“The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ is a compassionate meditation on the nature of faith.”—CBC News (Canada)

This sounds like the kind of thing we're looking for: Something with a base we're familiar with that raises questions and makes us think of our own views, perspectives, and preconceived notions in different ways. Since religion and philosophy seem to be a popular theme on this site, this book could bring in new readers who don't necessarily read much fiction, and could also send some of the fiction readers into the non-fiction forums to talk about their newfound perspectives with other members of the site they may not discuss with much otherwise. This cross-blending of forum discussions would be good for everyone, and from what I know of Philip Pullman, this book will be very well written, compelling, and beautiful and frightening at the same time.

I've been looking forward to getting this book for some time, and reading it with BookTalk would give me an excellent excuse to finally buy it. I think it's something we'd all enjoy and learn from, and I hope that everyone will give it sincere consideration before deciding for or against it.

Thank you.

[oblivion]

Ooooooh, have the Pullman sitting on my bookshelf but haven't read it yet! I would love to! As to Grass' Tin Drum--I'm out. Here in Germany, it is discussed over and over and over in school, then university. I cringe when I even hear the title mentioned.