The End of Faith, for readers late to the party

[johnson1010]

One things reading this book has done for me is let me connect the dots that it isn't really religion that is the problem. Religion is a result of an underlying problem.

If, tomorrow, all religion was just forgotten it would only be a matter of time before new ones sprung up to replace them. New religions are born every month. Some succeed, and will eventually stand shoulder to shoulder with the established ones, others fail and are widely derided as cults.

They are only symptoms. The real problem is magical thinking. The real problem is a lack of appreciation for what evidence and cause and effect can do for us.

I have only ever wanted people to have good reasons to do the things they do.

Belief in all things supernatural, from ghosts and ESP to religion all share the underlying commitment to believe in things that have no evidence.

So, it might be right to say that more harm has come from religion than good, but there are instances of good things coming from some people's religious affiliations. That is true.

I believe i am on quite firm ground, however, when i say that no infliction of suffering by one human on another has not been done without false belief. A belief without good evidence to back it. Religion functions as the path of many of these false beliefs, but it is an effect, not the cause.

We need to increase world-wide appreciation for the power of evidence and cause and effect.

[stahrwe]

One things reading this book has done for me is let me connect the dots that it isn't really religion that is the problem. Religion is a result of an underlying problem.

If, tomorrow, all religion was just forgotten it would only be a matter of time before new ones sprung up to replace them. New religions are born every month. Some succeed, and will eventually stand shoulder to shoulder with the established ones, others fail and are widely derided as cults.

They are only symptoms. The real problem is magical thinking. The real problem is a lack of appreciation for what evidence and cause and effect can do for us.

I have only ever wanted people to have good reasons to do the things they do.

Belief in all things supernatural, from ghosts and ESP to religion all share the underlying commitment to believe in things that have no evidence.

So, it might be right to say that more harm has come from religion than good, but there are instances of good things coming from some people's religious affiliations. That is true.

I believe i am on quite firm ground, however, when i say that no infliction of suffering by one human on another has not been done without false belief. A belief without good evidence to back it. Religion functions as the path of many of these false beliefs, but it is an effect, not the cause.

We need to increase world-wide appreciation for the power of evidence and cause and effect.

I already came up with CRUDE but I need to add MIUAIGA (making it up as I go along). It needs some work. It doesn't flow or speak for itself like CRUDE does but it is obviously something which I have seen in the writings of Murdock, Wright, and now you.

Tell me, is it not logical that if all religion vanished to be replaced by some new thinking would it not be likely that such new thinking would develop in harmony with the prevailing philosophy rather than in conflict with it?

[johnson1010]

And we are all endlessly thankful for your acronym. A gift to the world!

So, you are against people gaining an appreciation of evidence, and leaning towards having good reasons for their actions, and divorcing themselves of magical thinking?

[The Ritzy]

They are only symptoms. The real problem is magical thinking. The real problem is a lack of appreciation for what evidence and cause and effect can do for us.

The real problem may be because people want to know what's after death. Some people find it depressing to think that there's nothing left after life. Maybe the underlying problem is that people forget to live their life, instead spending most of their days thinking "What's next? What's after this?"

I've only just got into Sam Harris' book, which I'm getting more and more into. I especially like his quote:

The point is that most of what we currently hold sacred is not sacred for any reason other than that it was thought sacred yesterday.

I think he makes a good point with this.

I know that this book is arguing against religion in its entirety but I hope Mr. Harris does touch upon the more positive aspects of faith and believing in something of a higher being (well, maybe not a higher being but something along those lines, perhaps). Perhaps it would give a viable contrast so that people could read how the disadvantages of religion outweigh the benefits.

However, I doubt this happens. But I read on!

[stahrwe]

And we are all endlessly thankful for your acronym. A gift to the world!

So, you are against people gaining an appreciation of evidence, and leaning towards having good reasons for their actions, and divorcing themselves of magical thinking?

I think there is a great deal of evidence in support of Christianity and as for 'magical thinking' I am not sure what the origin of that canard is but it should not be your goto phrase as it is fundamentally unsound. At the heart of Christianity lies Jesus. It is not magical or even mystical it is merely who He is; Son of God, or not. Take it or leave it. I have the feeling that you rely on the phrase as an easy shortcut to end the argument. No matter the merits of the discussion, if trapped, flash the 'magical thinking' card, puff out your chest and chalk up another battle won.

That being said, there have been times when people in leadership roles have abused their power by exploiting faith. The sacraments, and indulgences are examples of some such abuses which had a patena of magic around them. They were routed out and for the most part the church as a whole keeps a pretty good handle on excesses. On the other hand (have I run out of hands yet? oh, that was fingers wasn't it?) believing that life generates spontaneously is an example of truly magical thinking and certainly, no scientist worth his or her salt would fall for that one, woudl they?

[Interbane]

I think there is a great deal of evidence in support of Christianity

In spite of your failure to provide any? A crane cannot lift itself into the air. The closest you've come is referencing such documents as the dead sea scrolls and other secular writings. That is not a 'great deal' of evidence, and it isn't evidence at all for the extraordinary claims.

[stahrwe]

I think there is a great deal of evidence in support of Christianity

In spite of your failure to provide any? A crane cannot lift itself into the air. The closest you've come is referencing such documents as the dead sea scrolls and other secular writings. That is not a 'great deal' of evidence, and it isn't evidence at all for the extraordinary claims.

You cannot make such claims and go unchallenged.
As of now, as a minimum you have failed to account for:

1) The reference in the Talmud to 4 distinct changes which took place in the Temple at the time of the crucufixtion and continued until the destruction of the Temple.
2) The fact that hematidrosis is mentioned in the Bible long before it was a known medical event.
3) The prophecy regarding the restoration of the nation of Israel accurate to the day and made over 907,000 in advance.

One of these is totally extraBiblical
One is Biblically related but deals with a scientific fact, and
One is based on the Bible but relates to an event which took place in the 20th century.

As you are aware from the Epistemology and Biblical Evidence discussion, there are other items brought in but until and unless you can impeach these it makes no sense to address the others.

One of the clever little games that atheists have relied on is to demand evidence, but place restrictions on what evidence is acceptable and reject anything which is proferred.

[johnson1010]

what is magical thinking?

Magical thinking is supposing that events can transpire through supernatural, or magical ways. Taking supernatural, or magical explanations over every day cause and effect explanations. Insisting on basing a world view on a fictional story rather than on readily observed evidence.

Magical thinking is the underlying acceptance of nonsensical explanations, and often the defense of these nonsensical stories when and after good evidence of a plausible explanation presents itself.

non-jesus related examples which you might be able to consider.

"There is a strange man in this photograph whom nobody remembers being there that day! It must be a ghost!"

"I hear a strange sound upstairs sometimes when i am going to sleep. My house must be haunted!"

"All of our crops died yesterday, I know that old ugly lady is evil, based on the way she looks. Clearly she is a witch, and if we burn her at the stake everything will work out just fine."

"I was chasing a thief around a building, when i turned the corner there was no trace of him, but instead there was a goat standing there. Clearly, he used witch-craft to transform himself into a goat to escape his punishment. I will arrest the goat."

"My father died last year, and this psychic is telling me things only my father would ever know, like about how we used to love to spend time together when i was a child. This man is a real psychic and he is communicating with my father's soul."

These are the kinds of offenses against rational thought i speak of when i say "magical thinking". Without a reliance on magical thinking religion as we know it could not have ever gained a foot-hold.

[Interbane]

Stahrwe:

1) The reference in the Talmud to 4 distinct changes which took place in the Temple at the time of the crucufixtion and continued until the destruction of the Temple.
2) The fact that hematidrosis is mentioned in the Bible long before it was a known medical event.
3) The prophecy regarding the restoration of the nation of Israel accurate to the day and made over 907,000 in advance.

1) There is no doubt the authors of the Talmud had access to the Bible. You can connect the dots I'm sure.
2) This only supports the claim that someone had that disease. It supports nothing else within the bible.
3) This is non-sequitur. If you want to see precisely how, form a logical argument the correct way, with premises and a conclusion, with how this prophecy supports the bible.

One of the clever little games that atheists have relied on is to demand evidence, but place restrictions on what evidence is acceptable and reject anything which is proferred.

The fault is yours for not abiding by the standards scholars have developed. You cannot blame atheists for using those standards. These standards are the building blocks of epistemology across the world. They have lead us into the information age, and are instrumental in eliminating false reasoning such as your attempts to support the Bible.

[stahrwe]

what is magical thinking?

Magical thinking is supposing that events can transpire through supernatural, or magical ways. Taking supernatural, or magical explanations over every day cause and effect explanations. Insisting on basing a world view on a fictional story rather than on readily observed evidence.

Magical thinking is the underlying acceptance of nonsensical explanations, and often the defense of these nonsensical stories when and after good evidence of a plausible explanation presents itself.

non-jesus related examples which you might be able to consider.

"There is a strange man in this photograph whom nobody remembers being there that day! It must be a ghost!"

"I hear a strange sound upstairs sometimes when i am going to sleep. My house must be haunted!"

"All of our crops died yesterday, I know that old ugly lady is evil, based on the way she looks. Clearly she is a witch, and if we burn her at the stake everything will work out just fine."

"I was chasing a thief around a building, when i turned the corner there was no trace of him, but instead there was a goat standing there. Clearly, he used witch-craft to transform himself into a goat to escape his punishment. I will arrest the goat."

"My father died last year, and this psychic is telling me things only my father would ever know, like about how we used to love to spend time together when i was a child. This man is a real psychic and he is communicating with my father's soul."

These are the kinds of offenses against rational thought i speak of when i say "magical thinking". Without a reliance on magical thinking religion as we know it could not have ever gained a foot-hold.

The "Magical Thinking" criticism continues to both befuddle and amuse me. It befuddles me because it won't go away. It amuses me because of its incongruity with facts. There is a Bible story which directly confronts 'magical thinking'. In fact it pits Christianity against it:

Acts 8:9-24 (King James Version)

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Simon was guilty of 'magical thinking' and he was rebuked.