What does your BookTalk.org name mean?

[Penelope]

Well, thank you for that Tom. I will try those shoe inserts and the exercises, although I am inclined to think that the pain is just wear and tear on the joints, a bit of arthritis. I may be wrong and it would be a shame to keep putting up with it, if it isn't necessary.

It may not be arthritis as I don't get pain in other joints and it doesn't hurt when I'm doing anything else.

Tom, not only are we completely and absolutely off-topic, we are boring the pants of everyone.

But thank you!!!

[Frank 013]

Penelope
Oh, so it's not superstition to believe that 13 can be luckier than any other number? The Romans used to consult the oracle and examine the intestines of birds to foretell the future, and I daresay they convinced themselves that there were good reasons for doing so.

It sounds to me like a retrograde step, back to superstition, in the place of blind faith.

Round in circles we go.

Sorry for my late response… I missed this part of the thread.

The thing is, I do not really think that 13 is luckier than any other number… it does happen to be the day of the month I was born on… and it has a terrible reputation for being unlucky in this country... Friday the 13th has an even worse reputation.

So I play with the word luck largely because of the negative correlation between 13 and bad luck… many people are outright frightened by my birthday… so I flaunt it as a badge of honor… if anything I am living proof that Friday the 13th is not inherently unlucky...

Which is something that many people still find surprising.

Later

[Penelope]

Frank: Considering the name of this thread; who would have thought that it could cause such a ripple.

Honestly, you daren't say anything to some folk without their hackles rising And them getting on their high horse.

Don't think twice, s'alright.....as Bob says.

[Frank 013]

Penelope
Considering the name of this thread; who would have thought that it could cause such a ripple.

That’s one of the things I love about this community… Anything can happen!

Later

[GentleReader9]

In response to Penelope:

Mary and GR

Quote:
What do you mean when you say "a good honest atheist?"


The ones on here have spent some time sneering at superstition. Implying that I am some kind of idiot for having a belief system based on faith.

Talking about the need to be rational and have proof for our beliefs,

Causing me a lot of heart searching.....and then suddenly, it's OK for Frank to talk about lucky numbers.........

Sorry.......but I think I should cease to comment further.

I apologize for logging off yesterday before hearing the responses (I had to go) and today, in the event that it seems as if I am ressucitating a fire that has already been quenched; the latter is not what I hope to do.

I just want to say to Penelope that I have felt concerned (just recently) that somewhere along the way (and I'm not sure where, actually) a misunderstanding must have developed between us. I recall trying to defend your right to respect for your beliefs, not once but several times. I still believe you are entitled to that and I've generally not seen you as an antagonist. I challenge you to find one time that I have ever sneered at you and quote it. I am certain that I never have. And I consider myself to be a person who lives a life centered on faith, virtually without any knowledge at all that does not come to me through faith.

I think my main problem is sometimes the opposite of what you say yours is (the tendency to be overly serious); there is a space behind all the words we use to talk about how we feel and what we experience in which none of it feels truly threatening to me. Consequently I can fall into play on too many levels with too many people at once and someone ends up getting hurt or confused, not because that is what I mean to do, just because I feel safe in that space of playing with ideas and words and it always surprises me when other people have different comfort zones than mine. On the other hand, what some people consider fair game as jokes can be outside my area of what's acceptable. Hmm. Nothing is absolute, I guess.

Anyway, I think what matters is that we care how the other people feel and try not to hurt them, but to enjoy being with them in appreciation and support. I do care how you feel and I apologize if I have hurt you. I hope you will feel safe to speak as much as you want, although as Mary Lupin said so brilliantly, it is your right to decide what you want to do. Please know you have my respect and affection, and you always have had them.

[Penelope]

Gentle Reader:

I challenge you to find one time that I have ever sneered at you and quote it. I am certain that I never have.

Dear GR, thank you for caring enough to want to clear up a misunderstanding. You have never, never sneered at anyone so far as I can see on here. You are obviously not the sneering kind. But, there have been times on here when I have been having (heated debates ) with Chris and Mr.P and others, where they have been....let us say....forthright. Quite rightly so, it's no good beating around the bush on these subjects, but I think Chris will agree, we have had some ding-dongs, all ending good naturedly, mostly, fortunately. Although, I say, I haven't used personal abuse about people, I think I have called Mr.P a desperado!!!

When I first came on here, most of the regular posters were men. I think there was only Ophelia who was female and she wasn't interested in discussing religion. She told me she thought I was a genteel English lady and at first she worried about how I would cope with these forthright Americans.....then she said, she stopped worrying because she saw that I was inclined to give as good as I got. I think Ophelia has gone off to smooth her ruffled feathers, as I have been known to do occasionally. (Ophelia, if you read this, I wish you would come back. I want you here.)

I loved it, and still love it on here, because I can discuss the matter of my faith, which does matter to me, and which I do take very seriously, although I insist that we must laugh occasionally, no not occasionally, often. Humour is needed in these matters more than anywhere.

I have had occasion to become really angry and I have cried and I have laughed. But during this time, I have thought, honestly and examined my belief system and it has changed and grown and altered. Taken a battering at times, but I knew it needed some thought and examination.

If there have been posts, and comments on here that I thought were blunt, unfeeling or unkind, I have said so. But I never meant to imply anything that you said was blunt, or sneering. But, there has been sneering........in the past. So I got prickly. Best to say so, rather than go off in the huff I have found.

Sorry if this is such a looooong post....but just thought it best to give you the background. And thank you for the opportunity to sum up.

We do influence one another in small ways and slowly, and even then our pride often won't let us admit it. I have been influenced......I am much clearer now about what I believe, because the people on here have made me fight it out. But, never reach a conclusion..... keep growing. Our mustard seed faith has to grow because there are mountains to be moved.

Pen x

[Frank 013]

TH
Believers have more fun and are, I think, better able to deal with the evils of the world.

I’m sorry I simply could not let this slide… More fun? In what way? When was the last time you heard of a fun Nun, Priest or Pope?

Many words can be used to describe these people but fun is (from my experience) one of the least used.

When I was a child and was asked if I wanted to go to church I tried it once… but did not go back because they restricted everything! It was no fun…

They wanted to control everything… how you think… what you could draw... who you could play with… dancing and partying are suspect because they lead to drinking and drug use… even dare I say it… SEX!!!!! That’s when I discovered that sex and masturbation were “EVIL Sins Of The Flesh!!!” roll playing games were “devil worship”… the list goes on and on…

It seems to me that if something is fun it is off limits to churchgoing believers.

So unless you consider a night of quiet bible study and singing hymns a wild night out… I think you are very mistaken… with two exceptions that come to mind immediately.

One is the Catholic denomination of Christianity… those people sometimes party like mad because they think that they can later repent their sins and still be peachy with their sky daddy… the other is Pagans and Wiccans… their religion seems to require wild parties!

The religious people that are the most fun are the ones that follow their religious scripture the least.

Secondly regarding the preparation to deal with the real evils of the world…

I do not see how telling people that a magic bearded sky daddy is protecting and watching them, helps prepare them in any way for the evils of the world… or how telling them that normal biological urges are evil helps them even recognize what actual evil really is …

Although I have seen the effect when the great bearded one has let them down… it’s not pretty.

Atheists have no ancient ridiculous moral boundaries, and from my experience like to experiment and experience, we do this with little inhibition because we lack the guilt that religion instills in its participants. So we can be VERY fun.

We also see the true evil of the world and prepare for it in a rational way, we do not expect gods or angels to intervene on our behalf and don’t think a nice little prayer will protect us from a fierce mugging… or worse… so we prepare in real ways like not looking like a victim… being aware of our surroundings… taking self defense classes… and so on.

It is statistically shown that atheists are better at navigating the hazards of life than any other group.

And don’t think for a second that we lack imagination… some of the atheists I know are also the most imaginative people I have ever met… of course that will not manifest in a debate… there we focus mostly to the matter at hand and the facts and information available.

So I respectfully disagree…

Later

[Penelope]

Frank:

I think Tom means that we have more 'Joy'....

it is the difference between 'joy' and 'pleasure'.

As we get older, and the pleasures in life are fewer, we still have that joy and sometimes in great abundance....from the way we live. From the way we 'be' .....not from what we believe....

Not from what we believe, because you are right, the image of a big headmaster in the sky brandishing his cane over us....would put the mockers on any joyous experience.

Real religion is just lived......not going to church and listening to some mere person telling us what we should 'not' do......real religion is experienced first hand.

After all Frank, your idea of what is fun is not going to be the same as mine, now is it?

I think young people today have a very odd way of enjoying themselves, but it is a different world for them......

There are fun atheists. There are fun believers....they don't usually happen to be in Church.....is all.

[Thomas Hood]

TH
Believers have more fun and are, I think, better able to deal with the evils of the world.

They wanted to control everything… how you think… what you could draw... who you could play with… dancing and partying are suspect because they lead to drinking and drug use… even dare I say it… SEX!!!!! That’s when I discovered that sex and masturbation were “EVIL Sins Of The Flesh!!!”

Frank, if you examine the statistical evidence, you will find that that women in fundamentalist denominations have more satisfying sex lives than the liberated and liberal. True in all religions generally, I think. Fundamentalist husbands are taught to place the wife's happiness ahead of their own. "Ladies first," as the saying is.

Tom

[Penelope]

Blimey Tom!!!

I think those fundamentalist women were making things up!!

Ahem...polite cough! I wasn't talking about sex.

I like seeing Stevie Gerrard score a goal for Liverpool FC.....as much as the next person......but that sort of 'pleasure' isn't what I was wittering about.

Oh why can't I learn to stop wittering........sorry.....

(Now you see...you've made me get the giggles.....and it isn't appropriate for a lady of my advanced years to giggle unceremoniously.....)

S'fun though.......