Let's analyze "Defeaters: The Problem of Science" - a sermon by Joe Coffey

[jcoffey]

Interbane, sorry about that. not real blog savvy yet so i am a little lost with how to respond to who. I would really like to learn some stuff from you guys. but my guess is you know you are not going to convert me and my guess is i am not going to convert you. ok, fair enough. i still would like to learn some stuff about how you connect dots and what is happening inside of you. For instance, i understand and appreciate the enormous existential courage it takes to live without any hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life. and please know there is no sarcasm there. i would like to know what you feel gives you purpose and meaning and how you determine what is good. Those are answers i find in faith and so that is an area i really don't know how to relate to and how to wrap my head around. you seem very bright which sometimes can make the world even darker and bleaker. this discussion may not fit under the defeater argument but one i am interested in nonetheless.

[Interbane]

In that case, we usually start a new thread. Here, I will do it for you. Then there are multiple parallel conversations going on under different topics.

Inspired Atheist




PS - Keep all comments relating to "Defeaters" here in this thread.

[Chris OConnor]

Interbane, I edited your post and added "Stahrwe" at the beginning so that Joe realizes you are not talking to him. To be honest I thought you were talking to him at first too and I was shocked. LOL Make sure you start posts with the name of the person you're talking to or people won't always know.

[stahrwe]

Interbane, I edited your post and added "Stahrwe" at the beginning so that Joe realizes you are not talking to him. To be honest I thought you were talking to him at first too and I was shocked. LOL Make sure you start posts with the name of the person you're talking to or people won't always know.

Though fuzzy thinking marrs my brain;
the thoughts I post are not insane,
My goal in BT is to train,
Logical thinking in Interbane.

I knew who Interbane's post was meant for. It is pretty much what he always says to me.

[DWill]

For instance, i understand and appreciate the enormous existential courage it takes to live without any hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life.

Just taking this point for now, Joe, remember that, although the desire for personal immortality is common in relgion, it isn't universal. So what atheists/agnostics/humanists do in excluding this belief isn't anything new. A true positive for disbelief in an afterlife is that it frees you from having to worry about hell.

[Interbane]

Stahrwe:

Though fuzzy thinking marrs my brain;
the thoughts I post are not insane,
My goal in BT is to train,
[In] logical thinking [from] Interbane.

I knew who Interbane's post was meant for. It is pretty much what he always says to me.

I definitely have a bad habit of not placing a person's name before my quotes and posts, sorry all. Stahrwe has repeatedly brought it to my attention.

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe:

Though fuzzy thinking marrs my brain;
the thoughts I post are not insane,
My goal in BT is to train,
[In] logical thinking [from] Interbane.

I knew who Interbane's post was meant for. It is pretty much what he always says to me.

I definitely have a bad habit of not placing a person's name before my quotes and posts, sorry all. Stahrwe has repeatedly brought it to my attention.

Hey, what gives, edit your own poem!

[stahrwe]

For instance, i understand and appreciate the enormous existential courage it takes to live without any hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life.

Just taking this point for now, Joe, remember that, although the desire for personal immortality is common in relgion, it isn't universal. So what atheists/agnostics/humanists do in excluding this belief isn't anything new. A true positive for disbelief in an afterlife is that it frees you from having to worry about hell.

Of course, there is another way to not worry about hell - be related to the one person who can keep you out. With your method there is still an inherent risk, with my method there is no inherent risk.

To me the whole eternal life and avoidance of hell thing is over rated. It is not the primary reason to have a relationship with God.

[lady of shallot]

Hi Chris, I did watch this video but it was painful. This man is kind of smarmy. The first thing I noticed was his description of an agnostic/atheist, which while I am one does not in any way describe me at all. I would never engage in a conversation with a believer because there would be no point. Without knowing the source of his quotes, let alone the originator of them why would one accept them at face value because he said so?

I am an atheist in a family of six aging children; the rest of whom are either Catholic or Episcopalian. One sister just returned from Israel and she and another sister had an online discussion (forwarded to me) of the wonders of seeing the "real" places where the events like Jesus' 12 stations of the cross, and the feeding of the multitude took place. If no amount of questioning or reason would kick in about these sites, how or why would the larger questions be of any interest or intellectual delving? Sadly, your relative is like mine, naive about the ability to live quite morally, happily and ethically without the crutch or fantasy of a supreme being and an everlasting life to come.

A bigger question that does intrigue me is why is there a need in some (most) individuals for this belief system? It must be a part of the wiring in of some of us because it is so pervasive across time and cultures and civilizations and because I know people who are much more intelligent than I who do share these beliefs.

[lady of shallot]

, i understand and appreciate the enormous existential courage it takes to live without any hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life. and please know there is no sarcasm there. i would like to know what you feel gives you purpose and meaning and how you determine what is good.

This is my first day on this book site which I did join to discuss books. Joe your sentence above indicates that you do not understand anything about agnostic/atheists. It takes no courage at all to live without the hope or desire of belief in anything beyond this life. What we (I) do have is bewilderment that anyone else finds it necessary to hold such beliefs. I will answer you sincerely because I believe your question is sincere.

Since I have lived already a pretty long life as an atheist, I will tell you what gives my life purpose and meaning and how I determine what is good. What is good is that I recognize what I want for myself is what others also want for themselves. Some of those goods are safety, love, health, kindness, acceptance, peace, tolerance and many more positive things.

My life's purpose and meaning is to, as much as possible given my limitations, express my recognized good in as many ways as possible to as many people, animals, nature and inanimate objects as I can. It is really pretty simple. I stand up to injustice and intolerance, I speak my truth. I love and cherish those who are dear to me, supporting their efforts. I try to be courteous and civil to all I encounter (including animals) I support causes I believe serve the common good. I try to improve myself, squelching unpleasant characteristics and improving positive ones.

It seems to me in these discussions that (as I wrote the original poster, Chris) we are all asking the wrong questions. There is something that divides believers in a supreme being and non believers that has nothing or little to do with intellect, science, faith or inculcation. It is if the wiring in some (lets say the believers) is needy in a way that is not present in non-believers.