Chapter 1. Economy

[WildCityWoman]

When I was a child, there were almost 1000 farmers in the county. Today there are less than 50.
Tom

That's shocking, Thomas . . .

It amazes me when we drive to what used to be the 'outskirts', the 'rural' parts of the city . . . when I was a child, everything past Victoria Park & Kingston Road (this is Toronto) was 'country' . . . now? It's still 'Scarborough', but it's all high rise, condo's and businesses like fast food joints, tattoo parlours . . .

A lot of us are living in cubes and buying produce that's grown in a greenhouse!

There are people who are moving away from this scenario though . . . growing food, raising animals for meat and trading with each other.

Of course, government doesn't like that - they're fast to move on it when they figure somebody's living in such a way that denies them money for their coffers.

There was a big schmoz made about a community who were drinking milk straight from the cow - no pasteurization!

The law moved in on that one!

In my opinion, as long as the barns are clean, the milking equipment, etal are in good working order, what can happen to milk if it's going to be consumed right away?

Things go wrong with food and drink, even under the strict regulations of the laws that govern the processing and distribution of same.

Look at the current nightmare with Maple Leaf's meats!

(If you're not Canadian and don't know what I mean, google on jit and you'll see)

[Robert Tulip]

MARK COLVIN: A leading health expert has infuriated HIV positive people in the Pacific region by suggesting that people with HIV and AIDs should be quarantined on an island away from other people.

Dr Sitaleki Finau has held senior medical positions in Australia and New Zealand. He's currently the director of health on the small island nation of Niue. He says his suggestion would be in the interests of people with HIV and AIDS.

New Zealand correspondent Kerri Ritchie.

KERRI RITCHIE: Dr Sitaleki Finau has an impressive CV.

Born in Tonga, he did his medical training in Queensland, and since then he's become a professor at New Zealand's Massey University and has held many senior medical positions in the Pacific.

Dr Finau believes people living in the Pacific with the HIV virus should be isolated, similar to leper colonies.

SITALEKI FINAU: It can be on their own island or on a compound. We still doing this various by say isolating as we speak. There's six people in the island of Chutt (phonetic) who are being quarantined for six months, because they have multiple resistant drugs for TB. So it's being done. And then we have camps for refugees, we have reservations for Indigenous people.

KERRI RITCHIE: Dr Finau says there are about 13,000 people with HIV in the Pacific.

He doesn't believe current awareness and prevention programs are working.

SITALEKI FINAU: There is a certain amount of choice in amongst it. And one of the curious things after all these years in the Pacific, I have never heard of a sex worker who's infected, telling the client not to have sex or to wear a condom because I've got HIV.

There doesn't seem to be anybody taking responsibility for the fact that they're carrying HIV viruses.

KERRI RITCHIE: Maire Bopp Dupont is from the Cook Islands.

She contracted HIV while at university and has founded the Pacific Islands AIDS foundation. She's one of around 100 Pacific Islanders who have travelled to Auckland for a three-day conference on HIV.

She's insulted by Dr Finau's idea.

MAIRE BOPP DUPONT: When it comes from someone like that, there really is no excuses. I mean it's very well known today that the isolation of positive people is not a way forward and it doesn't' achieve anything if not, taking us back in our prevention efforts.

KERRI RITCHIE: She says many people in the Pacific have been working hard improving HIV/AIDs awareness. She believes the doctor's comments have put their efforts back 10 years.

MAIRE BOPP DUPONT: In the Pacific, but also everywhere else. Isolation of positive people means that somewhere they've done something wrong, there's a scene attached to it, and therefore, and also a danger of what they have is contagious. So it's three ideas that are completely wrong.

KERRI RITCHIE: But Dr Finau says his idea is in the best interests of those with HIV. He believes isolation will actually make people feel less stigmatised.

SITALEKI FINAU: What we need is for them to have some mechanism in which they can live without feeling the stigmatisation. And that's basically separating them away from the so-called 'people adrift', so that they can do their thing, without having to look over their shoulder because they have a secret.

KERRI RITCHIE: Bruce Kilmister is the CEO of the support group, Body Positive. He says Dr Finau's quarantine idea is ridiculous and should be ignored.

BRUCE KILMISTER: I heard those comments 20 years ago in this country and I mean the gay community joked about it and said, "As long as the island we're isolated on is called Manhattan, we don't mind." But the reality is, it still represents stigma and discrimination, and even further, isolation, and that just will not deal with the problem.

KERRI RITCHIE: Maire Bopp Dupont believes Dr Finau's isolation idea would have terrible consequences.

MAIRE BOPP DUPONT: It will usually result in violence against positive people, or a person who might be assumed to have HIV within the community. Violence meaning being beaten up, being thrown out of churches, thrown out of villages, of homes, being treated like animals. I mean, we've got lots of stories like that.

MARK COLVIN: Maire Bopp Dupont from the Cook Islands, ending Kerri Ritchie's report.

[WildCityWoman]

Carley - Ophelia has tempted me with B&N a week or two ago. I must take a look.....

PS - I think I love you!!

That's so sweet, Penelope - but I ain't your type, y'know?

[WildCityWoman]

Well, I guess I've finished reading all the posts.

Maybe I oughta' go back to bed and try sleeping . . . it's 4:29 am here in Toronto, and I'm puttering around at the computer.

Gotta' get a decent sleeping schedule going.

[Thomas Hood]

Oh, well I didn't read all the posts yet, so I wasn't sure what sex/aids had to do with this chapter . . . I'll be listening to it over again, and reading through the text version as well.

Carley, the HIV matter began through a discussion of real charity, but there is a deeper connection. Tuberculosis was epidemic in Thoreau's time, and he had it. During much of his adult, he was, I suppose, infectious, and he is implicated in the death of Horace Mann's son, although the son's mother had already died of TB, I believe.

My grandfather was confined in a TB sanatorium by law, after he infected others, including me. I know from personal experiece that infectious persons will not "act responsibly," as some suppose, unless compelled by law.

Tom

[WildCityWoman]

Well, seeing as how we're on the topic of HIV and Africa, how do you hold with some of the documents online that say the 'Missionaries' actually started the HIV virus when they were 'experimenting' with polio vaccine?

I don't have any links right now - read through them a long long time ago.

[Robert Tulip]

This discussion on his views about philanthropy opens broad questions about Thoreau's views on morality and ethics. His opposition to philanthropy seems curmudgeonly and wrong at first sight, since it looks obvious to any compassionate person that helping people in need is a good thing. However, reality is more complex, as when we look at the consequences of compassion the story becomes more difficult. The terrible problem of HIV/AIDS in Africa illustrates this well.

Consider the following hypothetical options, path A and path B.

In path A, the path of compassion, the focus is to reduce the suffering of people living with HIV/AIDS. Considerable philanthropic resources are devoted to provision of anti retroviral treatment in order to prolong the lives of those who carry the virus.

In path B, those who have HIV/AIDS are allowed to die.

The real dilemma here arises when we consider what the likely consequences of these two extremes will be in terms of public health outcomes, cultural effects and moral incentives. Under path A, HIV is seen as a treatable condition. Under path B, HIV is seen as a deadly terror. With path A, promiscuity is morally acceptable because the consequences are manageable. With path B, promiscuity is seen as a highly dangerous and even repugnant practice because of the massive risk of early death. Path A normalises the practice of multiple sexual partners which spreads the epidemic while path B signals that this practice is unacceptable.

Much of the moral debate around HIV has been led by the public health community and by people living with HIV/AIDS, and has been premised on the assumption that moral condemnation is useless as a way to change behaviour, so PLWHAs promote ARTs while public health professionals promote condom use, as twin pillars of care and prevention. Promotion of abstinence is condemned as heartless, useless and stupid. Roman Catholic doctrine is set within an obsolete dogmatic framework and is easily dismissed by anyone sensible to the last few centuries of human thought. Yet I am left wondering if anything other than behaviour change resulting from material incentives will slow this remorseless insidious bug as it eats the heart out of Africa.

Thoreau, in his jarring counter-cultural way, seems to be asking with his comments on philanthropy if the sentiment of compassion produces the stated and intended results. It is a good question.

[Penelope]

Thank you Robert. A very helpful summing up.

It clarifies the thinking, even if the options are a complete dilemma.

To strengthen the human race, it is sensible and 'scientific?' to let the weak or diseased die. But there is that other part of us which feels it necessary to treat all human life as valuable. If we don't, then our own lives are devalued.

I, personally, feel that we must err on the side of love for our fellow man and forgiveness....but I do understand those who take the opposite view. A strongly disagree with them, however, because I can remember Hitler and his idea of creating a master race.

I think the ultimate question is:-

Is the strengthening and continuation of the human race the most important ideal

or

Is it more important to grow in understanding and compassion. Will compassion be the death of us? I would choose this path...but I could never blame those who disagree.

[DWill]

1.108 I would not subtract anything from the praise that is due to philanthropy, but merely demand justice for all who by their lives and works are a blessing to mankind. I do not value chiefly a man's uprightness and benevolence, which are, as it were, his stem and leaves.

It might be a good idea to keep in mind that Thoreau does not issue any blanket condemnation of philanthropy. He does roundly criticize aspects of it and makes it clear that he never wants to be a recipient of it. But, for all that, it is a general discussion. We do not know what he would think of dire situations such as AIDS in Africa. Furthermore, the AIDS example is a huge one, but it is not the only disease, by any means, whose reduction is a focus of philanthropy. Several infectious diseases--malaria, for instance--are still effective killers. There is no humane rationale for not treating malaria sufferers. Reducing populations clearly is not a humane goal.
DWill

[Saffron]

There is no humane rationale for not treating malaria sufferers. Reducing populations clearly is not a humane goal.
DWill

You have eloquently and intelligently responded to a series of posts that I have found very troubling. Thank you for your comment.

Saffron