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Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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ant

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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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His arguments had to be framed in accordance with Biblical scriptures that were held as absolute truth.
That is a facile understanding of the complexity of the Galileo saga and the internal and external climate that existed.

It was Realism (copernicus, Kepler, Galileo) vs Intrumentalists (Bellarmino, Urban VIII, the Collegio Romano, and most astronomers of the time).
(Intrumentalism defined as scientific theories acting simply as tools for providing plausible explanations.)

The Church wanted Galileo to provide evidence for his claims. Galileo could not, thererfore the church requested that he officialize his claims as being plausible explanations.There were clergy, theologians, and officials on both sides of the issue.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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As much as I'd like to take your comment seriously, I can't. You are committing a logical fallacy:
Point it out.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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ant wrote:
His arguments had to be framed in accordance with Biblical scriptures that were held as absolute truth.
That is a facile understanding of the complexity of the Galileo saga and the internal and external climate that existed.

It was Realism (copernicus, Kepler, Galileo) vs Intrumentalists (Bellarmino, Urban VIII, the Collegio Romano, and most astronomers of the time).
(Intrumentalism defined as scientific theories acting simply as tools for providing plausible explanations.)

The Church wanted Galileo to provide evidence for his claims. Galileo could not, thererfore the church requested that he officialize his claims as being plausible explanations.There were clergy, theologians, and officials on both sides of the issue.
I don't doubt that these were complicated issues and that we tend to see things through a modern-day lens. It has occurred to me that the division between science and religion was much less demarcated during Galileo's time. As science has illuminated many things that were previously unknown, that line has become much sharper and today we can more easily identify what is based on empirical evidence and what is not. It's also difficult to fathom how much has changed since Darwin. Evolution was a real game changer.
Robert Tulip wrote:Those who claim to be scientists and not atheists are liars, idiots, cowards and/or hypocrites. Science is atheist. Supernaturalism is obsolete.
I totally don't agree with this. People see the world in different ways. There are many people, scientists included, who believe in God and have the intellectual honesty to know that their belief is based on faith, not evidence. Humans also have an incredible ability to compartmentalize and hold conflicting positions, and I don't think that makes them liars, idiots, cowards or hypocrites. Many people simply haven't thought their positions through as I believe you have, but I have to say this is a surprisingly hard-line position for someone who seems to cherish the Bible as you seem to.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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Interbane wrote:
As much as I'd like to take your comment seriously, I can't. You are committing a logical fallacy:
Point it out.

Dicto simplicter
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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The Church wanted Galileo to provide evidence for his claims. Galileo could not, thererfore the church requested that he officialize his claims as being plausible explanations.
As if the church had no motive to be contrary towards Galileo's views! It can be seen in the actions of some of the involved characters, such as Professor Giulo Libri. He refused to look through a telescope to verify Galileo's claims. Others made the observations, but remained silent or refused to support Galileo for fear of Church retribution. It's not as though Galileo could take a picture and force the church to look at them. Observation in that time period was limited mostly to eyeballs. To authenticate most of Galileo's evidence, you'd have to look through a telescope. How hard would it have been to follow Galileo's instructions and look through a telescope to see a rough moon, Jupiter's moons, and a spotty sun, all evidence that he was correct and the church was wrong?

It wasn't the lack of evidence that caused Galileo issues, it was the Church's adamant adherence to scripture, which did not mesh with Galileo's views. Cardinal Bellarmine actually saw the things Galileo claimed, and was said to have a sort of cognitive dissonance over the issue. In light of writings that Galileo said scripture may not need to be taken literally, Bellarmine took sides and condemned Galileo's message. Faith in this case was stronger than evidence, and Galileo was sentenced to recant his views and remain in house arrest.

The initial friendly relations were due to Galileo's attempts to massage his observations to make them more digestible to the church. But due to scripture, there could be no reconciliation, no matter what methods Galileo used. From the mouth of the Pope: ""Your Galileo has ventured to meddle in things he ought not and with the most grave and dangerous subject that can be stirred up in these days."
Dicto simplicter
Thanks. I wonder if Robert could explain his definition of a natural scientist. I'd think some natural scientists could be theistic, meaning Robert's sentence was fallacious.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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ant wrote:
Interbane wrote:
As much as I'd like to take your comment seriously, I can't. You are committing a logical fallacy:
Point it out.
Dicto simplicter
For those wondering what ant is talking about here, he is saying that my assertion is fallacious that all real scientists are atheist, in so far as they are scientific.

He says the existence of religious scientists disproves my assertion. Latin pedants will note that ant has two typos in his citation of the fallacy 'a dicto simpliciter', which means the fallacy of ignoring exceptions. I say there is no fallacy here, and ant is just being pompous.

The fact is there is no evidence for anything supernatural. Science is limited by evidence. So to the extent that individual scientists believe in the supernatural, they are unscientific. As I said, the exceptions are justified by lies, cowardice, stupidity and hypocrisy, none of which are accepted scientific methods.

The definition of science as evidence-based fully justifies my assertion that any assent to propositions that lack evidence is unscientific. Ant is being fairly subtle in his apology for Christian rubbish, but his implication here that there may be scientific evidence for God gives his game away.

My comment relies on the definition of science as evidence-based. It is unlike the 'true scotsman' fallacy because reliance on evidence is intrinsic to science.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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I hadn't so much as clicked a single time on this thread until now, but I was curious about how closely the current discussion would relate to the thread name. This could be a booktalk party game--"what will they be talking about 7 pages in?" I think it's pretty cool, really (although it drives Chris nuts, I think).

No contribution from me. Well, maybe only as far as saying that the correlation of personality, experience, and cognitive "style" with whatever anyone thinks about this matter of accepting God-think--is the most interesting aspect for me. I'm an accommodationist for reasons, I'm sure, that have a lot to do with where I've been and my innate or shaped personality.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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Robert,

You've read none of my posts on this matter apparently and are creeping into ad hominem territory.
I agree that intelligent design is not a scientific hypothesis. Saying God put a rainbow in the sky is not an explanation for what a rainbow is.

You appear to be in the camp that believes science to be the only source of absolute truth regarding the complexity of creation. I DO NOT. Nor am I trying to be an apologist for any camp that feels differently.

You are ignoring what history has taught us up to the present.

Science is constantly in a state of flux. What then has science proven to be "true" to date?

Theology and Science have NOT been at odds with one another in the same watered down, superficial manner that current fundamentalists from both camps are

There have been and are, to date, scientists that understand science is capable only of explaining secondary causation. It is beyond what science can demonstrate to deduce that random meaninglessness in the natural world is evidence of the non existence of a divine intelligence (sorry if that may bother the hell out of you). The absence of evidence is not that same as evidence of absence.

What angers people like you is when someone wants to play on your scientific chessboard and not abide by the rules set in place.
What's ridiculous about that is that you feel the rules on your chessboard are the ONLY rules that govern existence. That is a lack of humility for the complexity of nature.

Science itself is aware of an inherent flaw within it that is difficult, if not impossible to reconcile - the fallacy of affirming the consequent. How true then is scientific knowledge?
Last edited by ant on Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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ant wrote: Science is constantly in a state of flux. What then has science proven to be "true" to date?

Theology and Science have NOT been at odds with one another in the same watered down, superficial manner that current fundamentalists from both camps are
Scientific discoveries have led to all of the technology that we see around us. What has theology done other than read some old books?

Because "truth" is elusive doesn't mean you can put all forms on inquiry on an equal footing. Most religious claims are contradictory, which means at least most of them are wrong. Are you going to defend all religious claims?

You can't disprove that I just jumped off my balcony, flew around and then came back. But you would require extraordinary evidence, wouldn't you? You wouldn't say that questioning it is a lack of humility for the complexities of nature. Well, what about the stories of the Bible?

Most theists are not just claiming, "well something must have created the universe," they are trying to defend a very specific version of events. Because they are doing it without evidence, they can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: Atheists' Billboard Causes Controversy

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Roberts response makes sense, but I'm not sure if I agree with him. Ant, I have to disagree about theology and science being at odds. When the findings of science result in a theory that goes against the teachings of religion, I'd say they are at odds.
What then has science proven to be "true" to date?
Proven? Nothing, at the same time that evidence of it's verisimillitude is in every nook and cranny of American life. The distinction is that science is humble, and absolutes are left for the arrogance of religion. This is true to the philosophy of science, at the same time we can acknowledge the exceptions, but that applies to both sides.
There have been and are, to date, scientists that understand science is capable only of explaining secondary causation.
You are assuming there is any such distinction within causation.
The absence of evidence is not that same as evidence of absence.


This is only true up to the point where we should reasonably expect to find evidence for something. In that case, the absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence. Quantifying that threshold may be impossible, but it seems we're far past it.

The problem is that we aren't limited to vision, or to hearing, or to any one sense, as we were hundreds of years ago. If it is detectable, we can detect it. If the god of the bible were real, some of his influence on the universe would by definition be detectable, as we humans are supposedly influenced(by more than the motive of belief). But what we see is an absence of evidence where we should reasonably expect at least a small amount. I would consider that evidence of absence.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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