Spider Rose - by Bruce Stirling - from Schismatrix Plus

[Mr. P]

Mr. P.:Sorry....I am by all means going to post some more...just been out of it lately. I did read Spider Rose yesterday. Interesting.Maybe you can post some thoughts on that in the meantime Mad.One thought I had...was that all planned do you think? The Investors seem very honorable in trade, but the had to know....maybe not the way it happened, but they had to know. Even the instructions were vague.I like this story the best because of the O'Henry-like twist.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[Mr. P]

Mad Architect: re: Spider Rose...(and Hive Queen, if you're still planning on discussing the stories, don't worry, we'll be more than happy to go back to "Swarm")...I don't know that it could have been entirely planned. There's no indication that the Investors had anything to do with the attack that crippled Rose's vessel. That's what prompted Rose to kill and eat the pet, and had that not happened...Maybe they saw it as a possibility, but I think the Investors probably tried to act honorably, and it just ended up working in their favor.In terms of the structure of the story, I've been reading an early 19th century German novel called "Peter Schlemiel, the man who sold his shadow", and it strikes me that "Spider Rose" has a similar trajectory. There's a kind of fairy tale logic to both. Schlemiel trades his shadow to a man dressed in gray, for a purse that never stops producing gold coins. Seems like a harmless trade, but the results are quite devestating. Incidentally, Lord Dunsany's "The Charwoman's Shadow", one of the most influential fantasy novels of the 20th century, had a similar plot. But I digress...Okay, so assuming that Rose's transformation wasn't a premeditated Investor plot, what would you say the story suggests? I don't think it is likely to yield up anything so crude as a moral, but I've been trying to think of what Sterling might have wanted to achieve with the story.Does it tell us anything significant about the Mechanists? In part, I see this as a kind of counterpart to "Swarm". The first story introduces us to the Shaper mentality, so might not the second introduce us to the Mechanist mentality. "Cicada Queen", incidentally, takes place in a mixed colony of exiles, which ups the ante a little.One fairly solid thing does occur to me, though. There's a contrast between the fluidity of the pet -- it conforms to the needs of the owner, can transform itself to resemble them -- and the obstinance of the main character, Rose. Extending from that, the pet thrives on connection, while Rose is content to disconnect herself from society altogether. That may be a tendency native to the Mechanists, a kind of dislocation from other people as individuals come to pattern themselves more and more after machines. There's some hint of it here, and more hints in "Cicada Queen", that the mechanists try to behave according to "routines", like the routines and sub-routines of a computer program. Anyway, it's a workable starting point...

[Mr. P]

Mr. P.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I don't know that it could have been entirely planned.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Maybe not entirely planned...but they had to know that they were leaving a potentially dangerous life-form with little instructions with Rose. The Investors are portrayed as very upstanding businessmen (did I mention that I find it amusing that these corporate-like, business tycoons are Lizards! lol), so I do not think they did anything to break the rules...but I think they were vague about what this was. Just like a good businessman. Or maybe they really did not know...they are also described as not too inquisitive into things.I think that this creature may not need be eaten to absorb others...but that is speculation as there is no evidence to support this in the story.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Peter Schlemiel, the man who sold his shadow"..."The Charwoman's Shadow"...But I digress...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Maybe you did...but at least I have two other stories to check out!Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------what would you say the story suggests? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well...Rose is a totally secluded being...physically and emotionally. Now she is part of a creature that is all about interaction with others. She beat down her memories and longings with drugs and shielded her being with her web...a true spider lying in wait for her prey.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Does it tell us anything significant about the Mechanists?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well obviously it does...but are all Mechanists like Rose? 200 years old? I am not sure if that is touched upon. Mechanists are all about technology as an aide to survival, and the Shapers are all about biological augmentation, as I see it from the two stories.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Extending from that, the pet thrives on connection, while Rose is content to disconnect herself from society altogether. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------But we see Rose coming out of that shell througout the interaction with the Pet. She goes through some emotional longings and starts to feel a connection with this creature...and then she eats it...as she eats and devours all other longings and pangs of emotion she has. But in the end, she is devoured. I wonder who made the pet...? I thought it may have been the Shapers...but it is way too advanced.Is the Mechanist isolation natural to them do you think or is it purposely induced in deference to their ideology of being? Without the drugs, Rose's emotions come on strong and she becomes more 'human'..but when she smashes her surpressed emotions, she is quite the efficient machine.Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------that the mechanists try to behave according to "routines", like the routines and sub-routines of a computer program. Anyway, it's a workable starting point... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can see that...at the beginning of the story with Rose plugged into her surveillance system..and how she processes the data and becomes the machine.Mr. P. Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

[MadArchitect]

Good thing we moved all of this. Until I saw it reposted here, I had forgotten to reply to some of what you said here.misterpessimistic: Maybe you did...but at least I have two other stories to check out!Update: I finished "Peter Schlemiel". It has an interesting conclusion -- I didn't realize until I read some of Chassimo's biographical information that there was a hint of allegorical autobiography in the ending. I wouldn't say it was terribly satisfying as an ending, but I think it would make for an interesting discussion on the motives that underlie dedication to the natural sciences."The Charwoman's Shadow" has a very similar plot, although it's more recognizable as conventional fantasy. On the whole, I'd say it's more satisfying as a story. Definitely one of my favorite modern fantasies.What I'd recommend is that you start with "Peter Schlemiel", then read "The Charwoman's Shadow". I think that's probably the best way to get maximum enjoyment out of both.Well obviously it does...but are all Mechanists like Rose?I think there may be a tendency among Mechanists to end up like Rose, even if it isn't expressed in all of them. "Cicada Queen" presents us with a Mechanist who is very much embedded in a social scene, but he may be more of an exception than Rose. I think these are questions that we'll probably have to leave unanswered until we get into Schismatrix itself, since that's sure to give us a broader view of the Shaper/Mechanist universe. For the time being, though, I'd suggest that the desire to pattern one's self after a machine or computer program is likely to lead one into a kind of isolation or -- great word, this -- anomie.and then she eats it...as she eats and devours all other longings and pangs of emotion she has.Ooh, great point. I hadn't thought about her consuming the pet in terms of the spider imagery. And then, when they find her, she's wrapped in a kind of coccoon. Here's a thought, then: maybe the pet, which mimicks its owners, it meant to reflect her spider nature -- not so much as a result of its genetic programming but within the logic of the story itself.I wonder who made the pet...? I thought it may have been the Shapers...but it is way too advanced.Yeah, I think it was implied that they had gotten it from something outside the humans' experience, a very remote species. Rose figured that the Investors themselves didn't know precisely what they had.Is the Mechanist isolation natural to them do you think or is it purposely induced in deference to their ideology of being?I think it's probably intentional. There are, if I recall, a few oblique references in this story to Spider's "routines". Those references start to crop up more in the next story. From what I can gather, the Mechanists aspire to complete machine efficiency, which includes "programming" their behavior. As such, emotions are probably seen by the Mechanists as disruptions, and are squashed in order to allow for unimpeded efficiency.

[the hive queen]

I read this story today. Good stuff, although I enjoyed "Swarm" more (probably due to my infatuation with social insect type aliens). It was interesting to see the Mechanist side of things, although I really don't think Spider Rose was necessarily representative of other Mechanists. I got the impression that other Mechanists interacted with each other on a more social level.This story was such a snippet of a seemingly bigger story... It left me with a lot of questions. Why was Spider Rose a loner. What were her hopes and dreams that she eliminated with drugs. What did she truly hope to accomplish? I would have liked a little more information on the Jade clones aspect of the story. "Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody is watching." -- Keller Williams

[MadArchitect]

I think "Spider Rose" is just a weaker story than "Swarm", hive queen. It isn't as compact or self-contained, and I feel as though Sterling brought in a lot of fragmentary parts in order to get to the central gist of the story. It might actually have been more compelling to focus on the horror element of the story, and show Rose's transformation over a longer span, like Jeff Goldblum's disintegration in "The Fly".