The Resurrection Body--Heaven

[Dawn]

If it is just our spirits which move on to heaven or hell, then what possible use could there be for a mansion?

In the interests of increasing Bible literacy I wanted to offer a Biblical explanation of the 'Resurrection Body' in answer to this question on the Unraveling the Supernatural thread.

The Bible actually teaches that though our bodies die and are buried there will be a resurrection to judgment:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:24-29

The issue of what sort of 'body' we will have is addressed in another passage:

The Resurrection Body
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; [fn5] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall [fn6] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” (I Cor.15)

Our present bodies are decidedly perishable and at death rot in the grave, true. But the Bible teaches that the essence of us lives on in its chosen everlasting state and is reunited with a resurrected and imperishable body. Thus the value of a residence.

[Dexter]

But I believe that we will go to a bigger and better version of Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. It's gonna be awesome.

There is just as much evidence for it as for these Bible passages.

[Frank 013]

Dawn
The Bible actually teaches that though our bodies die and are buried there will be a resurrection to judgment:

This is another example of the injustice of the god you worship… think about this…

If our souls manifest at conception but are eternal wouldn’t that mean that our time as humans is equal to infancy… and if that is the case, is it fair or justified to Judge us before we are mature?

Would you condemn a toddler to be put in prison for the rest of its life for simply saying “I don’t believe you” to his/her parents?

It seems to me that that is what you are condoning if you accept the belief that god sends people to hell for eternity for not believing in him… especially since he apparently left no evidence of his existence and did leave contradictory evidence that destroys the validity of the story about him.

The behavior you accept from your god is despicable by human standards (at least by modern human standards) and is obviously dated to the time of its writing. We would not accept that type of behavior from another person, why is it acceptable from your god? And if it is acceptable from your "perfect god" why is it not then acceptable behavior for people?

I will answer that last one for you… because as humans we realize that we make mistakes and have the capacity for forgiveness… condemning people for minor infractions before they know better is not fair nor is it justified.

Why anyone would willingly worship an individual that is so unfair and lacking in basic integrity (by our imperfect human standards) is beyond me.

Later

[lady of shallot]

Frank:

at least by modern human standards) and is obviously dated to the time of its writing.

Wouldn't it be kind of interesting to write a "Bible" reflecting the current Western philosophies and mores and attitudes? We could have a God but might have to change Jesus into just a nice guy who is not divine but a really gifted peace maker and negotiator and solver of problems. Certainly not anyone to be worshiped. That is destructive to human beings to worship. Admire yes, emulate yes, Worship, wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Frank 013]

That would be interesting... and its already been done... just watch Star Trek

Later

[stahrwe]

Dawn
The Bible actually teaches that though our bodies die and are buried there will be a resurrection to judgment:

This is another example of the injustice of the god you worship… think about this…

If our souls manifest at conception but are eternal wouldn’t that mean that our time as humans is equal to infancy… and if that is the case, is it fair or justified to Judge us before we are mature?

What exactly do you mean by 'manifest'? What does chronological age have to do with spiritual maturity? What are you basing these premises on? As I read your question it is unitelligible. "... our time as humans is equal to infancy?" What?

Dawn is correct but once again you err because you have not read the book you are so apt (though not adept at criticizing).

Hebrews 5:12-14 (New International Version, ©2011)
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

This clearly shows a maturing of one's spirit.

Would you condemn a toddler to be put in prison for the rest of its life for simply saying “I don’t believe you” to his/her parents?

I call shennigans on this. YOu have varied the quote. The toddler would demonstrate willful disobedience if he/she said, I don't believe you but that is not what you say is it. WHat you say, again using the toddler analogy is, "You aren't my Father," to God. If you chose to deny god is your father, He is not condemning you, you are doing it to yourself by rejecting Him. (Admittedly an oversimplification, but then I am dealing with an infant aren't I by your own admission?)

It seems to me that that is what you are condoning if you accept the belief that god sends people to hell for eternity for not believing in him… especially since he apparently left no evidence of his existence and did leave contradictory evidence that destroys the validity of the story about him.

You are doing exactly what Adam did in the Garden. When asked why he sinned Adam replied, "the woman YOU GAVE me ..." In other words it was God's fault that Adam was guilty. Is it God's fault that you reject Him? He should have left more evidence. He should have been cleared. He should have jumpted through the hoops I required Him to for me to believe Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Billions of people find the evidence compelling. It's your decision.

The behavior you accept from your god is despicable by human standards (at least by modern human standards) and is obviously dated to the time of its writing. We would not accept that type of behavior from another person, why is it acceptable from your god? And if it is acceptable from your perfect god why is it not then acceptable behavior for people?

What behavior are you referring to? You make no sense.

I will answer that last one for you… because as humans we realize that we make mistakes and have the capacity for forgiveness… condemning people for minor infractions before they know better is not fair nor is it justified.

No one is condemned for infractions major or minor. Forgiveness is offered. It's there for everyone but you have to take it according to the offer. By refusing to do so you choose the consequences; essentually you are condemning yourself by choosing to remain separated from God instead of being His. Why does that upset you? You don't believe in God. You don't want to have anything to do with Him now; why would you want to spend eternity with Him? You want to spend eternity separated from Him and that is what you are going to get so be happy that God is giving you what you want. For those of us who want to be His, we want to spend eternity with Him so both of us get what we want. The only loser in the mix is God, because He wants you with Him but He won't force you.

Why anyone would willingly worship an individual that is so unfair and lacking in basic integrity (by our imperfect human standards) is beyond me.

Later

Having heard the above lament essentially word for word from the atheist camp, I suspect it is one of the bricks in the wall you try to build. Too bad it doesn't work. No matter how many of these bricks you have, they won't save you. You need a bridge instead of a wall. You can't build a bridge with bricks it took a cross.

[Frank 013]

Stahrwe
What exactly do you mean by 'manifest'? What does chronological age have to do with spiritual maturity? What are you basing these premises on? As I read your question it is unintelligible. "... our time as humans is equal to infancy?" What?

Wow your dense… if my soul is eternal and is created at conception (as is claimed by many theists) and my soul is eternal according to those same theists… then my 80 or so years on earth would be only the tiniest first (minuscule) part of my whole “spiritual” existence… according to the belief as I understand it.

If we can continue to experience and learn after death then our short span in our bodies is only the tiniest fraction of our overall existence. Right?

That being said… a person’s time on earth would be the equivalent of their first micro second of conception in human terms. By the time we die as old people (assuming we make it that far) we have barely begun to exist in spiritual terms… according to your belief anyway

Which makes us less than infants spiritually... follow now?

Stahrwe
Dawn is correct but once again you err because you have not read the book you are so apt (though not adept at criticizing).

Dawn is correct according to you and a few others… and not to the people I trust... most people on this planet do not believe what you do and, as I have told you (again and again) I have read the bible… don’t be so dense.

Stahrwe
I call shenanigans on this. You have varied the quote. The toddler would demonstrate willful disobedience if he/she said, I don't believe you but that is not what you say is it. WHat you say, again using the toddler analogy is, "You aren't my Father," to God.

Ok, so if despite the evidence (which there is in the case of most parents but not for god) say your kid had said “you’re not my father! That’s impossible!) at say 3 years old…

As a loving father which path would you take?

Would you condemn him to horrible torture forever?

or

Would you try to show him the truth?

I suppose you (like your god) would let the child wallow in ignorance and then punish saying “your brothers don’t ask questions like that! what I say is good enough for them so take it or leave it!”

You really think that’s fair?

Stahrwe
If you chose to deny god is your father, He is not condemning you, you are doing it to yourself by rejecting Him. (Admittedly an oversimplification, but then I am dealing with an infant aren't I by your own admission?)

Well according to the math… my 42 years of infinity… I would be an infant… or even a fetus… but that is your belief, not mine.

I cannot reject someone who has made no offer that I can detect… save your book for the fiction section… I find nothing godly there… as I have said before it is beneath me and lacking in everything I need to believe.

Stahrwe
You are doing exactly what Adam did in the Garden. When asked why he sinned Adam replied, "the woman YOU GAVE me ..." In other words it was God's fault that Adam was guilty.

And I would agree that it was… god should have known what would happen according to your logic… yet he placed the temptation out anyway… if he truly loved his children he should have protected them until they really understood the consequences… any parent would do at least that much.

Stahrwe
Is it God's fault that you reject Him? He should have left more evidence. He should have been cleared. He should have jumpted through the hoops I required Him to for me to believe Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Billions of people find the evidence compelling. It's your decision.

first of all I am not those billions of people... and there are many others like me... so it is his fault if he will not show himself in a way he knows I (we) need to be able to see him… for an all powerful and loving being this should be no effort whatsoever… no “hoops” as you say… and well worth the effort if he loved us. For god to simply lay down the law as you claim makes him petty, inflexible and unjust. His priorities are off too… that is if he is truly good anyway.

Stahrwe
What behavior are you referring to? You make no sense.

Condemning people to hell for eternity for a non-criminal act… a simple lack of belief… see the proposed situation above.

Stahrwe
No one is condemned for infractions major or minor. Forgiveness is offered. It's there for everyone but you have to take it according to the offer. By refusing to do so you choose the consequences; essentually you are condemning yourself by choosing to remain separated from God instead of being His. Why does that upset you?

It does not upset me… I am very calm… My questions are moral in nature and god if he exists is lacking… my assertion is that you willingly worship a monster if he is as described in the bible… the description that you are giving me is like a stubborn boss with a “my way or the highway” attitude… that is not someone most people like or even respect.

Stahrwe
You don't believe in God. You don't want to have anything to do with Him now; why would you want to spend eternity with Him?

It’s not what I want or don’t want, it’s what I can perceive… I cannot perceive god with the available material.

Stahrwe
You want to spend eternity separated from Him and that is what you are going to get so be happy that God is giving you what you want. For those of us who want to be His, we want to spend eternity with Him so both of us get what we want. The only loser in the mix is God, because He wants you with Him but He won't force you.

Showing yourself is not forcing… you assume that if god were real that we would not want to meet him? I suppose that depends… if he is love than I would… if the bible is correct, then you are right I wouldn’t. But as I said, this is not about what I want… it’s about what I see… and I do not see god.

Stahrwe
Having heard the above lament essentially word for word from the atheist camp, I suspect it is one of the bricks in the wall you try to build. Too bad it doesn't work. No matter how many of these bricks you have, they won't save you.

Save me from what exactly? In one sentence you say that I get what I want and only god looses… now I need saving?

From what?

Later

[stahrwe]

Stahrwe
What exactly do you mean by 'manifest'? What does chronological age have to do with spiritual maturity? What are you basing these premises on? As I read your question it is unintelligible. "... our time as humans is equal to infancy?" What?

Wow your dense… if my soul is eternal and is created at conception (as is claimed by many theists) and my soul is eternal according to those same theists… then my 80 or so years on earth would be only the tiniest first (minuscule) part of my whole “spiritual” existence… according to the belief as I understand it.

But you are wrong. The idea is that human life begins at conception. My soul, your soul and the soul of people who have not yet been born were all created during the creation week so all human souls are the same age.

If we can continue to experience and learn after death then our short span in our bodies is only the tiniest fraction of our overall existence. Right?

Once again you are wrong. Human learning ends at the end of physical life.
You also don't understand the concept of eternity. Time ends. Eternity is outside of time so to claim that the time in our bodies is only a fraction of our overall existence is incorrect. The concepts are not relatable.

That being said… a person’s time on earth would be the equivalent of their first micro second of conception in human terms. By the time we die as old people (assuming we make it that far) we have barely begun to exist in spiritual terms… according to your belief anyway

Incorrect, see above.

Which makes us less than infants spiritually... follow now?

You don't know what you are talking about.

Stahrwe
Dawn is correct but once again you err because you have not read the book you are so apt (though not adept at criticizing).

Dawn is correct according to you and a few others… and not to the people I trust... most people on this planet do not believe what you do and, as I have told you (again and again) I have read the bible… don’t be so dense.

There is a difference between reading passages here and there and actually reading for understanding. If you indeed have 'read' the Bible you weren't paying much attention as you demonstrate a lack of knowledge and understanding of the simpliest of it.

Stahrwe
I call shenanigans on this. You have varied the quote. The toddler would demonstrate willful disobedience if he/she said, I don't believe you but that is not what you say is it. WHat you say, again using the toddler analogy is, "You aren't my Father," to God.

Ok, so if despite the evidence (which there is in the case of most parents but not for god) say your kid had said “you’re not my father! That’s impossible!) at say 3 years old…

I was expanding on your example.

As a loving father which path would you take?

Would you condemn him to horrible torture forever?

He begged you time after time to choose to be with Him. Should He kidnap you and hold you against your will. If given a choice at the judgement, even knowing what is in store for them the rebellious would choose separation from God. Don't make this about God, this is your choice.

or

Would you try to show him the truth?

I suppose you (like your god) would let the child wallow in ignorance and then punish saying “your brothers don’t ask questions like that! what I say is good enough for them so take it or leave it!”

You really think that’s fair?

I believe at this point that you are belaboring an issue which has been proposed and answered over and over.

Romans 1:20 (New International Version, ©2011)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Stahrwe
If you chose to deny god is your father, He is not condemning you, you are doing it to yourself by rejecting Him. (Admittedly an oversimplification, but then I am dealing with an infant aren't I by your own admission?)

Well according to the math… my 42 years of infinity… I would be an infant… or even a fetus… but that is your belief, not mine.

I cannot reject someone who has made no offer that I can detect… save your book for the fiction section… I find nothing godly there… as I have said before it is beneath me and lacking in everything I need to believe.

See above rebuttal about infant - nonsense, and the quote from Romans about knowledge.

Stahrwe
You are doing exactly what Adam did in the Garden. When asked why he sinned Adam replied, "the woman YOU GAVE me ..." In other words it was God's fault that Adam was guilty.

And I would agree that it was… god should have known what would happen according to your logic… yet he placed the temptation out anyway… if he truly loved his children he should have protected them until they really understood the consequences… any parent would do at least that much.

Once again you are trying to blame God. He doesn't work that way and even if He did, temptation is not the same as forcing disobedience and even if you disobey there is a solution.

Stahrwe
Is it God's fault that you reject Him? He should have left more evidence. He should have been cleared. He should have jumpted through the hoops I required Him to for me to believe Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Billions of people find the evidence compelling. It's your decision.

first of all I am not those billions of people... and there are many others like me... so it is his fault if he will not show himself in a way he knows I (we) need to be able to see him… for an all powerful and loving being this should be no effort whatsoever… no “hoops” as you say… and well worth the effort if he loved us. For god to simply lay down the law as you claim makes him petty, inflexible and unjust. His priorities are off too… that is if he is truly good anyway.

you are blaming God and trying to manipulate Him at the same time. If He gave into your demands you would cite that as evidence against Him. You need some new material. Whatever hack you got this spiel from is really old, out of date school.

Stahrwe
What behavior are you referring to? You make no sense.

Condemning people to hell for eternity for a non-criminal act… a simple lack of belief… see the proposed situation above.

Do you have anything original. How many times are you going to repeat this idea? Are you trying to fill space or wear me down?

OK, I have the time and patience so here goes again:

Criminal???? What criminal act. Also, as explained above He is not condemning you. You have the choice, you make the choice. If the evidence is not sufficient for you again, that is not God's job to meet your demands. As I said before, there will be some at the final judgement, when there is no doubt that God is real and the lost are staring at the abyss that is separation from God, the lost will choose that separation. The will condemn themselves.

Stahrwe
No one is condemned for infractions major or minor. Forgiveness is offered. It's there for everyone but you have to take it according to the offer. By refusing to do so you choose the consequences; essentually you are condemning yourself by choosing to remain separated from God instead of being His. Why does that upset you?

It does not upset me… I am very calm… My questions are moral in nature and god if he exists is lacking… my assertion is that you willingly worship a monster if he is as described in the bible… the description that you are giving me is like a stubborn boss with a “my way or the highway” attitude… that is not someone most people like or even respect.

Once again you are wrong. You haven't read the Bible. It is more like, "Hey, I love you come with me and I will care for you." And you say "'Expletive deleted' I don't want anything to do with you and you, YOU, Frank013, goes on his way. You choose your way God doesn't do it for you.

Stahrwe
You don't believe in God. You don't want to have anything to do with Him now; why would you want to spend eternity with Him?

It’s not what I want or don’t want, it’s what I can perceive… I cannot perceive god with the available material.

Then something is blocking your view.

Stahrwe
You want to spend eternity separated from Him and that is what you are going to get so be happy that God is giving you what you want. For those of us who want to be His, we want to spend eternity with Him so both of us get what we want. The only loser in the mix is God, because He wants you with Him but He won't force you.

Showing yourself is not forcing… you assume that if god were real that we would not want to meet him? I suppose that depends… if he is love than I would… if the bible is correct, then you are right I wouldn’t. But as I said, this is not about what I want… it’s about what I see… and I do not see god.

The Children of Israel could see a manifestation of God and the rebellious ones still refused to follow Him. Seeing Him, the way you demand, is not the answer. On the other hand, pleanty of us do know Him personally.

Stahrwe
Having heard the above lament essentially word for word from the atheist camp, I suspect it is one of the bricks in the wall you try to build. Too bad it doesn't work. No matter how many of these bricks you have, they won't save you.

Save me from what exactly? In one sentence you say that I get what I want and only god looses… now I need saving?

From what?

Later

Eternal separation from God.

[Dexter]

Eternal separation from God.

I am curious, you seem quite confident about the nature of God and the afterlife. What exactly does this "eternal separation from God" consist of? Do we just hang out with nothing to do? If it's not being tortured by Satan, are we cursed with eternal boredom? I better bring a few books -- a Kindle could really come in handy.

[Dawn]

But I believe that we will go to a bigger and better version of Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. It's gonna be awesome.

There is just as much evidence for it as for these Bible passages.

Oh? such as?