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The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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The Nova Show The Bible's Buried Secrets has been on the back burner for a bit, but while gone it was not fogotten and we have just finished a cut at consolidating, or at least beiginning a colsolidation of it.

A frequent claim of atheists relates to the historicity of Bible stories and characters. Two frequently doubted are David and Solomon. In the Nova show, Finkelstein doubts whether David was a real person and if he was his 'kingdom' had to be a small tribal area. Nothing resembling the Bible's description. The problem is that Finkelstein's conclusion is based mostly on conjecture and is countered by the following, taken from the transcript:
NARRATOR: When the biblical chronology of Israel's kings can be cross-referenced with historical inscriptions, like the Tel Dan Stele, they can provide scholars with fairly reliable dates. King David is the earliest biblical figure confirmed by archaeology to be historical. And most scholars agree he lived around 1000 B.C., the 10th century.

Could any of the Bible have been written during David's reign? The earliest Hebrew alphabet discovered by Ron Tappy carved on a stone at Tel Zayit provides an enticing clue.

[transcript page 15]

NARRATOR: So has Mazar discovered the Palace of David? She adds up the evidence. The building is huge, it is located in a prominent place in the oldest part of Jerusalem, and the pottery, according to Albright's chronology, dates to the 10th century B.C., the time of David. Mazar believes she has indeed found the Palace of David.

But that evidence and, indeed, the kingdom itself rest on the dates associated with fragments of pottery, and some critics argue the system for dating that pottery relies too heavily on the Bible.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: Archaeologists in the past did not rely too heavily on the Bible, they relied only on the Bible. We have a problem in dating. How do you date in archaeology? You need an anchor from outside.

NARRATOR: Today, there is a more scientific method to anchor pottery to firm dates, radiocarbon dating. It is a specialty of Elisabetta Boaretto of the Weizmann Institute.

ELISABETTA BOARETTO (Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel): The first step is, of course, in the field, which relates this sample material like olive pits or seeds or charcoal to the archaeological context.

NARRATOR: If an olive seed is found at the same layer as a piece of pottery, the carbon in the seed can be used to date the pottery.

When the seed dies, its radioactive carbon-14 decays at a consistent rate over time. By measuring the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12, Boaretto can determine the age of the olive seed, which, in turn, can be used to date the pottery.

Boaretto has meticulously collected and analyzed hundreds of samples from over 20 sites throughout Israel. Her carbon samples date the pottery that Albright and most archaeologists associate with the time of David and Solomon to around 75 years later.

[transcript page 17]

When the seed dies, its radioactive carbon-14 decays at a consistent rate over time. By measuring the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12, Boaretto can determine the age of the olive seed, which, in turn, can be used to date the pottery.

Boaretto has meticulously collected and analyzed hundreds of samples from over 20 sites throughout Israel. Her carbon samples date the pottery that Albright and most archaeologists associate with the time of David and Solomon to around 75 years later.

For events so long ago, this may seem like a trivial difference, but if Boaretto is right, Mazar's Palace of David and Tappy's ancient Hebrew alphabet have to be re-dated. This places them in the time of the lesser-known kings Omri, Ahab, and his despised wife Jezebel, all worshippers of the Canaanite god Baal.

With no writing or monumental building, suddenly the Kingdom of David and Solomon is far less glorious than the Bible describes.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: So David and Solomon did not rule over a big territory. It was a small chiefdom, if you wish, with just a few settlements, very poor, the population was limited, there was no manpower for big conquest, and so on and so forth.

NARRATOR: This would make David a petty warlord ruling over a chiefdom, and his royal capital, Jerusalem, nothing more than a cow town.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: These are the results of the radiocarbon dating. He or she who decides to ignore these results, I treat them as if arguing that the world is flat, that the Earth is flat. And I cannot argue anymore.

NARRATOR: But it's not so simple. Other teams collected radiocarbon samples following the same meticulous methodology. According to their results, Mazar's palace and Tappy's alphabet can date to the 10th century, the time of David and Solomon.

How can this discrepancy be explained? The problem is that these radiocarbon dates have a margin of error of plus- or minus-30 years, about the difference between the two sides.

NARRATOR: Pottery and radiocarbon dating alone cannot determine if the Kingdom of David
and Solomon was as large and prosperous as described in the Bible.

Fortunately, the Bible offers clues of other places to dig for evidence of this kingdom. The Bible credits David with conquering the kingdom, but it is Solomon, his son, who is the great builder.

VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible "Revised Standard Version," First Kings 9:15): This was the purpose of the forced labor which Solomon imposed. It was to build the House of YHWH ... and the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer.

NARRATOR: Here in Hazor, Amnon Ben-Tor, director of excavations, believes this may be evidence of Solomon's building campaign.

Archaeologists call it a six-chambered gate, a massive entryway, fortified with towers and guard rooms. Ben-Tor's predecessor, Yigal Yadin first uncovered this structure.
AMNON BEN-TOR: It turned out to be a six-chambered gate, and Yadin immediately remembered that a very, very similar gate was excavated at Gezer, and then Chicago University excavated this gate, here at Megiddo.

NARRATOR: Stunned by the similarity of these three gates, Yadin recalled the passage in the Bible.

AMNON BEN-TOR: Here we have a wonderful connection of the biblical passage as it shows up in archaeology.

NARRATOR: Three monumental gates, all based on the same plan, would seem to be powerful evidence not only of prosperity, but also of a central authority. Throughout its history the Israelites had been divided into tribes, then into kingdoms, north and south. The locations of these strikingly similar gates in both regions suggest a single governing authority throughout the land.

But how can we be sure this is the Kingdom of David and Solomon? The answer, once again, lies in Egypt.

DONALD REDFORD: The head-smiting scene, which you see on this wall, commemorates a military campaign conducted by Pharaoh Shishak, or Sheshonk, the founder of Dynasty 22, in Egypt.

NARRATOR: The Egyptian pharaoh Shishak invades Israel, an event the Bible reports and specifically dates to five years after Solomon's death, during the reign of his son, Rehoboam.
VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible "Revised Standard Version," First Kings 14:25–26): In the fifth year of King Rehoboam, King Shishak of Egypt marched against Jerusalem and carried off the treasures of the House of YHWH and the treasures of the royal palace. He carried off everything.

DONALD REDFORD: The importance of this, in fixing one of the earliest dates, specific dates, in which Egyptian history coincides with biblical history is really startling and has to be taken note of.

NARRATOR: This stunning convergence between the Bible and Egyptian history gives a firm date for the death of Solomon. Shishak's campaign, according to the well-established Egyptian chronology, dates to 925 B.C. And the Bible says Solomon dies five years earlier, which means 930 B.C. This is further evidence that David and Solomon lived in the 10th century, but there's even more hidden in these walls.

These ovals, with their depictions of bound captives and city walls, represent places Pharaoh Shishak conquered in Israel. One of those places is Gezer, where archaeologists find the hallmark of Solomon's building program, a six-chambered gate.
Bill Dever directed the excavations in the late 1960s.

WILLIAM DEVER: We can actually see vivid evidence here of a destruction. Down below, we have the original stones, pretty much in situ, but, if you look in here, you see the stones are badly cracked. You can even see where they're burned from the heat of a huge fire that has been built here. And then, up in here, you see the fire had been so intense that the soft limestone has melted into lime, and it flows down like lava. This is vivid evidence of a destruction, and we would connect that with this well-known raid of Pharaoh Shishak.
NARRATOR: And if the gate was destroyed by Shishak, in 925 B.C., then it must have been built during the lifetime of Solomon, who died just five years earlier.

WILLIAM DEVER: Surely this kind of monumental architecture is evidence of state formation, and if it's in the 10th century, then...Solomon.

NARRATOR: Although a minority of archaeologists continue to disagree, this convergence of the Bible, Egyptian chronology and Solomon's gates is powerful evidence that a great kingdom existed at the time of David and Solomon, spanning all of Israel, north and south, with its capital in Jerusalem.
[transcript Pg 20]
Conclusions:
Finkelstein wrong
David and Solomon real as described by the Bible
Portions of Bible written cotemporaneous with life of David/Solomon.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Gosh, that is simply fascinating. Using the Bible to support the narrative of the Bible. Of course Finkelstein is wrong. Where does the Bible mention him?
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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lady of shallot wrote:Gosh, that is simply fascinating. Using the Bible to support the narrative of the Bible. Of course Finkelstein is wrong. Where does the Bible mention him?
I refer you to the trascript of the Nova Show and the show itself. The archaeologists compared the Bible account of David and Solomon with the raid of the Egyptian Pharaoh Shishak. Using that Chronology, indepent of the Bible the presence of an oppulant palace in Israel was identified and its owner Solomon determined.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Conclusions:
Finkelstein wrong
David and Solomon real as described by the Bible
David and Solomon are real as described by the bible? There is nothing in your post which even comes close to supporting that conclusion. You're referencing a set of claims that are very specific. I see no way to come to any other conclusion than that to say David and Solomon most likely existed. Also, the city was likely of decent size, due to the structure of the city gates. I'm not being overly skeptical here, I'm simply going off the information you've provided. If there is more information that confirms each and every sentence about David and Solomon from the bible, then I apologize.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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stahrwe wrote: Conclusions:
Finkelstein wrong
David and Solomon real as described by the Bible
Portions of Bible written cotemporaneous with life of David/Solomon.
It gratifies me to see you've come around to appreciating that TV documentary!
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Interbane wrote:
Conclusions:
Finkelstein wrong
David and Solomon real as described by the Bible
David and Solomon are real as described by the bible? There is nothing in your post which even comes close to supporting that conclusion. You're referencing a set of claims that are very specific. I see no way to come to any other conclusion than that to say David and Solomon most likely existed. Also, the city was likely of decent size, due to the structure of the city gates. I'm not being overly skeptical here, I'm simply going off the information you've provided. If there is more information that confirms each and every sentence about David and Solomon from the bible, then I apologize.
Whenever I see language similar to that bolded I suspect your sincerety; correction there is no suspicion involved. The Nova progrm is available for purchase, the transcript is available for free. It references the Bible verses and the Egyptian Pharoah can be googled. Nova presents two sides and their conclusion is not based on faith. As some point I will have to stop holding your hand.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Whenever I see language similar to that bolded I suspect your sincerety; correction there is no suspicion involved.
Glad to see I'm free of suspicion. Skepticism doesn't require my sincerity to be judged. Since you can judge it yourself. In the post you provided, there is evidence and reasoning that Solomon and David were real. I don't have a problem with that. It's possibly enough to warrant belief rather than agnosticism. Maybe it's more than enough, I haven't watched the video. But there is a large difference between being "real", and being "real as described by the bible". You are nesting a set of claims within the proposition. The former is a single claim, the latter is a set of claims. Your conclusion is that every claim that refers to Solomon and David from within the bible is true. Each and every reference to them. I'm not being overly skeptical by saying your conclusion is false.


Of all the passages that refer to David and Solomon within the bible, how many can you say are conclusively true based on the information in your quote?
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Interbane
there is a large difference between being "real", and being "real as described by the bible". You are nesting a set of claims within the proposition. The former is a single claim, the latter is a set of claims. Your conclusion is that every claim that refers to Solomon and David from within the bible is true. Each and every reference to them. I'm not being overly skeptical by saying your conclusion is false.
Interbane is correct, what you are asking is the equivalent of saying that because the ruins of Troy have been unearthed that we should (without any other confirming evidence) accept the Iliad story as entirely true. Gods fought on the battlefield side by side with mortals… a nearly invulnerable Achilles (because he was dunked into the river Styx) murdered Hector and later died because of an arrow through his ankle… there is no evidence that even begins to suggest that these events took place… and they are believed to be mythical, possibly (and I stress possibly) based loosely off of a real (mundane) battle that may (or may not) have included real, normal people with the names mentioned in the text.

Even though the setting may have been real it in no way confirms the other parts of the story… especially the fantastic parts… and weather you like it or not the same standards apply when addressing the biblical accounts.

Later
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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stahrwe wrote:ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: Archaeologists in the past ... relied only on the Bible. We have a problem in dating. How do you date in archaeology? You need an anchor from outside. David and Solomon did not rule over a big territory. It was a small chiefdom, if you wish, with just a few settlements, very poor, the population was limited, there was no manpower for big conquest, and so on and so forth. These are the results of the radiocarbon dating. He or she who decides to ignore these results, I treat them as if arguing that the world is flat, that the Earth is flat. And I cannot argue anymore.

[And along comes the fundy knight in shining armor to rebut the scientist - "if you squint hard enough you can really see a face"]

NARRATOR: Here in Hazor, Amnon Ben-Tor, director of excavations, believes this may be evidence of Solomon's building campaign.
NARRATOR: Three monumental gates, all based on the same plan, would seem to be powerful evidence not only of prosperity, but also of a central authority. Throughout its history the Israelites had been divided into tribes, then into kingdoms, north and south. The locations of these strikingly similar gates in both regions suggest a single governing authority throughout the land.
WILLIAM DEVER: We can actually see vivid evidence here of a destruction. Down below, we have the original stones, pretty much in situ, but, if you look in here, you see the stones are badly cracked. You can even see where they're burned from the heat of a huge fire that has been built here. And then, up in here, you see the fire had been so intense that the soft limestone has melted into lime, and it flows down like lava. This is vivid evidence of a destruction, and we would connect that with this well-known raid of Pharaoh Shishak.
NARRATOR: And if the gate was destroyed by Shishak, in 925 B.C., then it must have been built during the lifetime of Solomon, who died just five years earlier.
WILLIAM DEVER: Surely this kind of monumental architecture is evidence of state formation, and if it's in the 10th century, then...Solomon.

Conclusions: Finkelstein wrong David and Solomon real as described by the Bible Portions of Bible written cotemporaneous with life of David/Solomon.
For those who struggle with Stahrwe's walls of text, I have summarised some key points above. A Biblicist says there was a big building or two. From this thin reed, Stahrwe spins a thread title "Israel Finkelstein proved wrong".

Sadly we have another example here of creationist "logic", ie starting with a conclusion of biblical inerrancy, and then shamelessly ignoring evidence to fraudulently assert that a false conclusion has some evidentiary basis. There is nothing here beyond Finkelstein's correct assessment "Archaeologists in the past ... relied only on the Bible".

My view is that the Jews who wrote the Bible had plenty of chutzpah, even if that word does not appear in the David and Solomon story. Spinning a magnificent empire out of a few burnt rocks is a good example.

For more on Finkelstein, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelstein

And his article, A Great United Monarchy?

It all shows that blind faith is totally untrustworthy as a basis for evidence on any historical claims whatsoever. The faithful are all to willing to lie and deceive because demolishing their false ideology is too painful.

Acharya S has emphasised the fraudulent nature of Biblical claims in her review of Dr Bart Ehrmann's new book - see Bible scholar: New Testament books and letters bogus
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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For DWill, I must admit that the second half of the NOVA Show seemed like a different production. It actually dealt with archaelogocal evidence rather than speculation.

For Interbane, I am beginning a major project and don't have time to spoon feed you anymore but still would if it would do any good. In this case the good of the many must outweigh the good of the few, or the Interbane.

As for Robert Tulip, recalling Dr. McCoy's words to the Tier of the Ten Tribes I say, "his words are unimportant, and we do not hear them."
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
n=1

where n are natural numbers.
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