[quote]Constance963 wrote:
I believe most of the religions in the book are the author's invention with the exception of the paganism. The Pleasure Faith follows the prophecies of the Time Dragon, which Elphaba coincidentally was born in.

Tammy:

If Maguire intended the religions in his book to be direct parallels to existing religions, the I would wager that Unionism would stand for Christianity because they believe in an "Unnamed God" (like the Jewish use 'Yahweh' to stand for God) and that other religions (e.g. the Pleasure Faith and Lurlinistic Paganism) are sacrilegious/blasphemy. In my opinion, (though I'm not totally straight on this myself) the Pleasure Faith represents Hedonists and/or those who follow a religion that includes magic. They would be those who follow no particular faith, but indulge their desires with abandon, or those who, instead of following an unseen deity, follow sorcery and other magical arts (divination, ceremonial magick, etc.). Lurlinistic Paganism would simply be a form of pagan religion.

However, I neither think Maguire was trying to represent any particular religion from our society through the ones in his book, nor that he was trying to find fault or place blame with any religion. In contrast, what I think he was doing by giving the religions in his book familiar qualities/dogma to the ones we have in real life was to try and make his religions as familiar as possible to us so that we could relate to them. Once we could do that, we could more easily begin thinking critically about religion in general

Yes, Unionism seems to stand for Christianity.
This religion is shown as ridiculous, or ineffectual.

Frexpar's resounding failure and humiliation with his parishioners appears very early in the book (in "The Clock of the Time Dragon" and "The Birth of a Witch").

As always I love the use of language for a comical effect:

p21: " "Brother Frexspar, said Bfee, the mayor or Rush Margins, could you perhaps tone down your harangue until we get a chance to see what fresh new form temptation might take?"
"We've hardly had a good chance to prove ourselves against sin! We're looking forward to the-- to the spiritual test of it all."
The fishermen laughed and jeered."

The "show" provided by the Time Dragon is a mix between the miracle plays of the Middle Ages and the many painting and texts which denounced the hypocrisy of monks and priests at the time.

" The clock unfolded a story about a publicly pious man (...) who preached simplicity, poverty, and generosity while keeping a hidden coffer of gold and emeraulds..."

The term "miracle play" is used p23.
The miracle plays were not meant to criticize, but they were the only form of entertainment in small places in the Middle Ages.




Later, Frex tries to exercise Elphaba, and fails.

I am not sure whether the author mocks the religion, or the character of Frex (pompous, inefficient), or both.

For anybody interested in medieval miracle plays, here is the link to the (excellent) Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_play


Now, all this takes me back to a question I have already mentioned: what sort of people read Wicked in the US (apart from intellectuals).
It's not for children, and can you sell millions of copies while criticizing religion in the US?

Of course, Maguire does not write "Christianity" but "Unionism."
Is this enough?

As part of an anwser to my question, I've just found a post by a Christian writing about "Wicked":



[quote]Living in Expectation
Matthew 24:36-44
by the Rev. Dr. E. Scott Jones
Cathedral of Hope

I think that the success of the book is due in large part because of the musical. The show really tones down the religious aspects of the book so people might be more inclined to read it not knowing about some of the major themes. I have to admit I probably would not have picked it up had it not been for the show. I think renaming Christianity as "Unionism" helps keep the world of Oz separate from ours in a way....that by renaming a major religion it may keep from offending any super-religious people because you can kind of tell yourself that it is a made up religion.

I think Maguire is using the characters to show that religion doesn't necessarily "save" anyone. Frex believes wholeheartedly in his Unnamed God, but that doesn't prevent tragedy from befalling his family. But bad things happen to everyone in the book no matter what their faith or beliefs. And later in the book (without giving away plot) he makes a point that religious faith may simply be a misunderstanding.

"Pleasure faith": is this paganism?

Merriam-Webster's definition of "pagan":


1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

The definition I've highlighted seem to fit.

The problem is that of course it is the monotheistic churches such as christianity and islam that have associated paganism with "sensual pleasures" and "hedonism".

If you look at wiki the reality is more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

"He applied some coal dust to darken his eyebrows, a smear of red wax on his flat cheeks. He shaded his lips. A handsome priest attracted more penitents than a homely one." (pp 10

Tammy, I'll think about what you wrote about Frex.

For the moment, I've answered the latter part of your posting on a different thread:

http://www.booktalk.org/post31223.html#31223

Ophelia wrote:"Pleasure faith": is this paganism?

Merriam-Webster's definition of "pagan":


1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

The definition I've highlighted seem to fit.

The problem is that of course it is the monotheistic churches such as christianity and islam that have associated paganism with "sensual pleasures" and "hedonism".

If you look at wiki the reality is more complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Ophelia, I'll have to check through my copy of the book again, but I think that at one point Elphaba calls herself a pagan and I think Paganism is mentioned elsewhere in the book. My impression was that Pleasure Faith was more like hedonism, but I'll check my book later.

Dictionary.com's definition of hedonism:

1. the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the highest good.
2. devotion to pleasure as a way of life: The later Roman emperors were notorious for their hedonism.

Constance wrote:

My impression was that Pleasure Faith was more like hedonism, but I'll check my book later.

Dictionary.com's definition of hedonism:

1. the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the highest good.
2. devotion to pleasure as a way of life: The later Roman emperors were notorious for their hedonism.

Yes, I think this would be better: "Pleasure faith"= hedonism

and then Lurlinism could be an older faith than unionism, and be the equivalant of paganism?

Tammy wrote:

[quote]"He applied some coal dust to darken his eyebrows, a smear of red wax on his flat cheeks. He shaded his lips. A handsome priest attracted more penitents than a homely one." (pp 10